4 ms·

Yes, but cities have FTTH, rural areas have.. often times nothing that approaches >5 Mbps.

reportingsjr 7y ago
This will always be the case, unless rural subsidies are increased even more drastically (not really a good thing). Infrastructure in cities is far cheaper than rural areas, so this is kind of a cat and mouse game for rural areas where internet will be x times slower than in cities.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  Rural internet is expensive because no PRIVATE company wants to put up a tower or run fiber for a couple dozen people. A satellite covers a much wider area. We'll see how it plays out, but as a person living out here, I'm excited.
  - leesalminen 7y ago
    It worked for our neighborhood. A retired engineer down the road did exactly this- started a private company to provide good wireless P2P internet to our rural, mountainous community. He’s about 7 years in and now serves 70% of our area. It ain’t cheap, but he’s been profitable enough now to be able to buy additional bandwidth from his upstream. We’re about to get 50/25 in the coming months. I offer my services to him for free just to help contribute and make sure he doesn’t go out of business. It feels like a community effort! I set up the online billing portal and recurring payments, another guy goes on people’s roof to install the ubiquiti receiver, etc. we all chip in.
    - milankragujevic 7y ago
      Just a quick question, what equipment and at what distance are you using to get 50/25? Initially I had setup a PTP link at 3 km with MikroTik gear and got 10-20 Mbps, varying wildly. I actually subscribed to an Internet connection over DSL in a building where I don't live and got permission to put an antenna and modem there to send Internet to my house. Later I subscribed to an actual Internet company, doubting my own skills in setting up the link. They don't offer anything over 10 Mbps, but I asked for them to let me have an unlimited link for an hour, and it did the same 10-20 Mbps with Ubiquiti gear. Some WISPs use Cambium gear and apparently do offer 50 Mbps, but I'm not quite sure how well does that work, and how much better is Cambium, or i.e. Mimosa, compared to UBNT/MTik.
      - leesalminen 7y ago
        The tower uses a Uniquiti Prism Rocket 5ac Gen2 with a 45 deg sector antenna. The receiver on my roof is a Uniquiti PowerBeam AC Gen 2. They’re about 1.5km away with clear line of sight and minimal interference. I don’t recall the specifics on the back haul on the tower. My signal has been solid as a rock in all weather conditions for several years. I think the clear line of sight and little radio interference were key to making this work. We don’t have cell or tv signal here. From what I understand the sheriff’s radio coverage is spotty as well.
        milankragujevic 7y ago
        Ah, I understand. Thank you for the info. The distance and enviromental factors sound good, and with the PBE-5AC-Gen2 it would work wonderfully. Unfortunately, shocking as it is, most WISPs in developing nations are stuck on 802.11n equipment, especially using MikroTik's CPE and AP hardware. If I'm ever redoing this link (I probably will, I've torn it down because I lost permission) I'll get Ubiquiti AC Gen 2 PTP gear, the best I can reasonably afford. And some aiming tools.
        leesalminen 7y ago
        With regards to aiming- I picked up a battery powered PoE injector a while back and it’s been invaluable. This lets me experiment with different mounting places quickly by powering up the radio and connecting to UNMS.
  - reportingsjr 7y ago
    Yep! Exactly my point, it is way more expensive (i.e. companies wont do it as the money isn't there) to run high speed hardware. Satellite comms may be cheaper, but the speeds and latency will be quite a bit worse than what you'll find in urban areas. For reference, people are talking about wanting 25 to 50mbps, while I am getting gigabit for $45/mo (Cincinnati, Ohio). Hence the cat and mouse game.
martinald 7y ago
Yes, of course. But how big of a market is that really? I imagine the market is actually pretty small, considering a lot of rural areas have semi-workable 4G coverage, and others have small wireless p2p ISPs. My point wasn't that it doesn't make sense whatsoever, it's just that it is going to be a niche solution. Considering the insane capex of getting the sats in space, if the market is too niche, will it be able to pay back the capex costs?
- milankragujevic 7y ago
  > But how big of a market is that really? You can't know until you do extensive market research. >a lot of rural areas have semi-workable 4G coverage Yes, but also extremely restrictive data caps and expensive overage fees per kilobyte. >small wireless p2p ISPs Yes, that would be the biggest competition to LEO satellite broadband. However, PTMP (point to multipoint) WISP requires line of sight and expensive CPEs to reach speeds over 20 Mbps for more than 1-2 km (0.6-1.2 miles). There is still shared capacity, and RF noise problems (as with satellites). >it is going to be a niche solution Unfortunately, yes. And if it ever gets anywhere near to being profitable and threatening the traditional fixed access telcos, they'll just spend some pennies (compared to revenue), lay fiber to most of the residences, and do a mix of FTTH and FTTC (VDSL2 with profile 35b for up to 50 Mbps at 1km (0.6 miles) or 350 Mbps at 100 m (0.06 miles)) to save costs for users who have good-enough-quality twisted pair telephone lines but are too far from the DSLAM to get good speeds. VDSL2 is quite servicable, it is unclear to me why is it so underutilized in the USA. DSL is a dedicated service, since the telephone line isn't shared with multiple people nor multiplexed in any way, so it provides a very stable connection, if the speed is conservatively set per the line's maximum length.

This will always be the case, unless rural subsidies are increased even more drastically (not really a good thing). Infrastructure in cities is far cheaper than rural areas, so this is kind of a cat and mouse game for rural areas where internet will be x times slower than in cities.

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
Rural internet is expensive because no PRIVATE company wants to put up a tower or run fiber for a couple dozen people. A satellite covers a much wider area. We'll see how it plays out, but as a person living out here, I'm excited.
- leesalminen 7y ago
  It worked for our neighborhood. A retired engineer down the road did exactly this- started a private company to provide good wireless P2P internet to our rural, mountainous community. He’s about 7 years in and now serves 70% of our area. It ain’t cheap, but he’s been profitable enough now to be able to buy additional bandwidth from his upstream. We’re about to get 50/25 in the coming months. I offer my services to him for free just to help contribute and make sure he doesn’t go out of business. It feels like a community effort! I set up the online billing portal and recurring payments, another guy goes on people’s roof to install the ubiquiti receiver, etc. we all chip in.
  - milankragujevic 7y ago
    Just a quick question, what equipment and at what distance are you using to get 50/25? Initially I had setup a PTP link at 3 km with MikroTik gear and got 10-20 Mbps, varying wildly. I actually subscribed to an Internet connection over DSL in a building where I don't live and got permission to put an antenna and modem there to send Internet to my house. Later I subscribed to an actual Internet company, doubting my own skills in setting up the link. They don't offer anything over 10 Mbps, but I asked for them to let me have an unlimited link for an hour, and it did the same 10-20 Mbps with Ubiquiti gear. Some WISPs use Cambium gear and apparently do offer 50 Mbps, but I'm not quite sure how well does that work, and how much better is Cambium, or i.e. Mimosa, compared to UBNT/MTik.
    - leesalminen 7y ago
      The tower uses a Uniquiti Prism Rocket 5ac Gen2 with a 45 deg sector antenna. The receiver on my roof is a Uniquiti PowerBeam AC Gen 2. They’re about 1.5km away with clear line of sight and minimal interference. I don’t recall the specifics on the back haul on the tower. My signal has been solid as a rock in all weather conditions for several years. I think the clear line of sight and little radio interference were key to making this work. We don’t have cell or tv signal here. From what I understand the sheriff’s radio coverage is spotty as well.
      - milankragujevic 7y ago
        Ah, I understand. Thank you for the info. The distance and enviromental factors sound good, and with the PBE-5AC-Gen2 it would work wonderfully. Unfortunately, shocking as it is, most WISPs in developing nations are stuck on 802.11n equipment, especially using MikroTik's CPE and AP hardware. If I'm ever redoing this link (I probably will, I've torn it down because I lost permission) I'll get Ubiquiti AC Gen 2 PTP gear, the best I can reasonably afford. And some aiming tools.
        leesalminen 7y ago
        With regards to aiming- I picked up a battery powered PoE injector a while back and it’s been invaluable. This lets me experiment with different mounting places quickly by powering up the radio and connecting to UNMS.
- reportingsjr 7y ago
  Yep! Exactly my point, it is way more expensive (i.e. companies wont do it as the money isn't there) to run high speed hardware. Satellite comms may be cheaper, but the speeds and latency will be quite a bit worse than what you'll find in urban areas. For reference, people are talking about wanting 25 to 50mbps, while I am getting gigabit for $45/mo (Cincinnati, Ohio). Hence the cat and mouse game.

martinald 7y ago

Yes, of course. But how big of a market is that really? I imagine the market is actually pretty small, considering a lot of rural areas have semi-workable 4G coverage, and others have small wireless p2p ISPs. My point wasn't that it doesn't make sense whatsoever, it's just that it is going to be a niche solution. Considering the insane capex of getting the sats in space, if the market is too niche, will it be able to pay back the capex costs?

milankragujevic 7y ago
> But how big of a market is that really? You can't know until you do extensive market research. >a lot of rural areas have semi-workable 4G coverage Yes, but also extremely restrictive data caps and expensive overage fees per kilobyte. >small wireless p2p ISPs Yes, that would be the biggest competition to LEO satellite broadband. However, PTMP (point to multipoint) WISP requires line of sight and expensive CPEs to reach speeds over 20 Mbps for more than 1-2 km (0.6-1.2 miles). There is still shared capacity, and RF noise problems (as with satellites). >it is going to be a niche solution Unfortunately, yes. And if it ever gets anywhere near to being profitable and threatening the traditional fixed access telcos, they'll just spend some pennies (compared to revenue), lay fiber to most of the residences, and do a mix of FTTH and FTTC (VDSL2 with profile 35b for up to 50 Mbps at 1km (0.6 miles) or 350 Mbps at 100 m (0.06 miles)) to save costs for users who have good-enough-quality twisted pair telephone lines but are too far from the DSLAM to get good speeds. VDSL2 is quite servicable, it is unclear to me why is it so underutilized in the USA. DSL is a dedicated service, since the telephone line isn't shared with multiple people nor multiplexed in any way, so it provides a very stable connection, if the speed is conservatively set per the line's maximum length.