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I live in touristy city, and I wish nothing more than to see Airbnb crash and die. Finding rent here is mission impossible, most landlords will happily rent to

I live in touristy city, and I wish nothing more than to see Airbnb crash and die. Finding rent here is mission impossible, most landlords will happily rent to you for a contract that ends at the start of the summer, then you have to figure out where to live for 3 months. Housing prices are impossibly expensive compared to local salaries, and landlords would rather keep a place empty for an occasional airbnb than have a full-time tenant (that has a lot of legal protection regarding eviction). My prediction is that this summer season is dead, and that many places will go back to regular renting, I hope they never go back to Airbnb again.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Have you worked with your city government to champion legislation to heavily regulate short term rentals? If not, please do!
- Raed667 7y ago
  A number of local candidates ran on the platform of housing reform. They don't get elected.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Are your local officials not amiable to aggressive short term rental regulation implementation? Housing reform can mean many things.
cameronfraser 7y ago
I agree, AirBnB is an unsustainable business and I would also like to see it regulated out of existence. It is extremely classist. Only something that middle class or higher can use while reducing housing availability which primarily impacts lower classes.
- ravenstine 7y ago
  I don't get that argument. Going by your logic, housing itself is classist because people who aren't at least in the middle class can't afford houses much of the time. And maybe it is, but then what? Are we supposed to abolish classism because some people are less fortunate?
  - officemonkey 7y ago
    It depends on what you think the best use of housing is. Is housing meant to "make money for the owner" or "provide housing for people?" There, I've just taken class out of the equation. Your answer?
    - skulpter 7y ago
      Are clothes meant to “make money for manufacturers” or “provide warmth for people” Is food meant to “make money for producers” or “provide nutrition for people” None of these things are mutually exclusive. Otherwise, where do you draw the line?
      - officemonkey 7y ago
        The problem is "Housing" is not simply a consumable like food or (mostly) clothes. The owner can consume the housing or rent it. But if it's not used to house people, then is it really housing? Or just real estate?
    - matz1 7y ago
      Best use of housing is whatever the owner think its best for. There is no single answer.
      - kstenerud 7y ago
        The best use of housing is what the government defines, in accordance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (specifically, article 25) for all United Nations members.
- xwdv 7y ago
  Housing availability for lower class individuals is not impacted because low class housing generally isn’t rented out on AirBnB.
  - ericzawo 7y ago
    You haven't done much backpacking have you.
  - yokaze 7y ago
    Sure it is, the market pressure redefines, what is low-class housing. Local middle-class unable to compete with international tourists splurging for a couple of days have to go for formerly low-class housing.
- wyager 7y ago
  If you think it needs to be "regulated out of existence", it sounds like you think it actually is sustainable; you just don't like it. > It is extremely classist. Only something that middle class or higher can use So you think any business which isn't affordable to everyone should be shut down?
  - empath75 7y ago
    If I build a factory that dumps toxic sludge into the water supply, that’s not sustainable and yet it might be quite profitable in the absence of regulation.
    - wyager 7y ago
      Airbnb doesn't have massive uninternalized externalities. The preconditions of the Coase theorem are pretty close to being met when it comes to house rental.
  - vladvasiliu 7y ago
    I think the part of the sentence missing in your quote ("while reducing housing availability which primarily impacts lower classes") explains his stance. Usually businesses catering to the upper classes don't usually do so at the detriment of "the poor". For example Ferrari selling 100k+ cars doesn't prevent me from buying a cheap car. Homeowners renting to "rich people" prevents a poor person from renting the same apartment. This could of course happen with regular rentals, but the difference is that nobody would pay above market rates for a long-term rental, which is what basically happens with Airbnb.
    - wyager 7y ago
      Why do you say it's "above market" when there's a market for it?
      - vladvasiliu 7y ago
        I mean "above the rates of the long-term rental market". I think the argument is that Airbnb and similar take those apartments from the long-term rental market and put them on the (very) short-term rental market, aka the hotels'. The problem put forward by those arguing against Airbnb is that this is a zero-sum game. If you have tourists who are able and willing to pay more for a flat (aka "middle or higher class"), this reduces housing availability for "the lower classes". You could, of course, argue that this would be true even without Airbnb if enough "higher class" people wanted to live in a given city all of a sudden. I suppose that's why people also tend to be against gentrification.
- akirakurusu 7y ago
  How is it something only classists can use? I use Airbnb _because_ it is cheap, usually significantly cheaper than hotels when visiting cities. I use it to save money because I am cost conscious. A lot of lower-income friends also use Airbnb because of this very reason. It has been a lifesaver for us.
  - kstenerud 7y ago
    Because it removes the place from the rental market. We're not talking about people holidaying; this is about having access to a roof over your head in your daily life.
  - typon 7y ago
    You're a tourist going to another city on vacation or other reasons. You're middle class and thus part of the problem for the lower class people of that city.
    - bane 7y ago
      I'm sorry, this is a fantastically ignorant and entitled statement. Poor people often need to travel. I say this as somebody who grew up firmly poor and was even homeless with my entire family for a time.
      - typon 7y ago
        We are talking about the majority of the reason why people use Airbnb. It's used as a replacement for hotels for people on vacation. Of course having a cheap place to stay for people who can't afford hotels when they're traveling is a necessity. That role was traditionally filled by hostels and I'm not sure if Airbnb is a good replacement for that when you look at all the downsides.
        bane 7y ago
        When my family was homeless, we would have killed to have had the security of an AirBnB available back then. Instead we stayed in a number of different places, many of which were downright dangerous. After we clawed our way out of poverty, my parents were unable to afford to take our family anywhere for over a decade. The first family vacation we ever took we slept in the car and brought all of our own food. Poor people need to take a break also and this terrible vacation was blessed luxury from multiple jobs, daily danger and sickness, and grinding poverty. My extended family is also spread all over thousands of miles as jobs were to be had. A simple visit to meet grandparents, or to meet cousins or other family is not a middle class problem. Poor people have families and loved ones as well. I'm going to say this as respectfully as I can -- you don't know what it means to be poor with unstable housing, and you should think more about speaking for poor people, what you perceive to be their needs, and should stop scolding other people for not being poor.
- bane 7y ago
  > Only something that middle class or higher can use I think it's more nuanced than that. I've stayed in AirBnBs that were clearly being run as a major source of income by people who otherwise didn't have many options for income (remote areas, Native reservations, etc.). I remember staying in a spare structure in the Navajo nation a few years back, it was run by an elderly couple who were looking after their 3 granddaughters and literally had no other way to make income to support themselves or the girls. They said AirBnB and a prepaid cell phone had literally turned around their entire economic situation. Separately, it has enabled many of my friends who are on the lower end of the economic spectrum to afford to go places with their family as AirBnBs are usually cheaper than hotels and generally larger and often include kitchens (further saving costs eating out while traveling). One of my friends in particular (in his 40s) took his first out-of-state family vacation ever due to this. Before this they never ventured further than a few hours drive from where they lived because they simply couldn't afford it. I also entirely agree that they need to be better regulated, and that they can have a deleterious effect on local housing prices. Japan seems to have taken some serious steps towards finding a good balance of regulation and availability for these things. On a trip to Japan we stayed in hotels and AirBnBs and in every case the BnBs were cheaper, larger, and generally better than the hotels. However, they're only allowed to use them as short-term rentals for 180 days per year, must be licensed and have other restrictions on when they can be used. [1] I don't know if Japan's approach is the right one, but the number of AirBnBs available in Japan make me think that it hasn't destroyed the legitimate marketplace for this type of side income (where AirBnB is at its best) while also making it much harder for people to soak up the local rental market as speculators with "accommodations" being used to reduce risk in their investment portfolio. 1 - https://www.asiaone.com/asia/airbnb-says-forced-cancel-bookings-under-new-japan-law https://www.asiaone.com/asia/airbnb-says-forced-cancel-booki...
wyager 7y ago
> than have a full-time tenant (that has a lot of legal protection regarding eviction) This sounds like a pretty convincing argument against laws that are extremely lopsided in favor of tenants. If you make renting out property an extremely high-risk proposition, of course property owners are going to prefer something less risky.
- Raed667 7y ago
  I have to disagree there. Feeling safe in your rented apartment from unjustified evictions, doubling rent without notice, or landlord trespassing etc.. is an absolute must.
  - wyager 7y ago
    I am safer from all of those things living in a ~completely deregulated housing market than I ever was living in the highly regulated NYC housing market. I couldn't change my apartment keys in NY, but that's expected here in Hong Kong. And how do you define "unjustified eviction"? The criteria for eviction and rent changes are clearly spelled out in the 2 or 3 page contract I signed for my apartment here, unlike the multi-hundred-page legalese nightmare I signed in NYC (once again, thanks to the overbearing "tenant protection" laws).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
wolco 7y ago
Most places make it at the end of your current contract you automatically go month to month. They cannot kick you out.

toomuchtodo 7y ago

Have you worked with your city government to champion legislation to heavily regulate short term rentals? If not, please do!

Raed667 7y ago
A number of local candidates ran on the platform of housing reform. They don't get elected.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Are your local officials not amiable to aggressive short term rental regulation implementation? Housing reform can mean many things.

cameronfraser 7y ago

I agree, AirBnB is an unsustainable business and I would also like to see it regulated out of existence. It is extremely classist. Only something that middle class or higher can use while reducing housing availability which primarily impacts lower classes.

ravenstine 7y ago
I don't get that argument. Going by your logic, housing itself is classist because people who aren't at least in the middle class can't afford houses much of the time. And maybe it is, but then what? Are we supposed to abolish classism because some people are less fortunate?
- officemonkey 7y ago
  It depends on what you think the best use of housing is. Is housing meant to "make money for the owner" or "provide housing for people?" There, I've just taken class out of the equation. Your answer?
  - skulpter 7y ago
    Are clothes meant to “make money for manufacturers” or “provide warmth for people” Is food meant to “make money for producers” or “provide nutrition for people” None of these things are mutually exclusive. Otherwise, where do you draw the line?
    - officemonkey 7y ago
      The problem is "Housing" is not simply a consumable like food or (mostly) clothes. The owner can consume the housing or rent it. But if it's not used to house people, then is it really housing? Or just real estate?
  - matz1 7y ago
    Best use of housing is whatever the owner think its best for. There is no single answer.
    - kstenerud 7y ago
      The best use of housing is what the government defines, in accordance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (specifically, article 25) for all United Nations members.
xwdv 7y ago
Housing availability for lower class individuals is not impacted because low class housing generally isn’t rented out on AirBnB.
- ericzawo 7y ago
  You haven't done much backpacking have you.
- yokaze 7y ago
  Sure it is, the market pressure redefines, what is low-class housing. Local middle-class unable to compete with international tourists splurging for a couple of days have to go for formerly low-class housing.
wyager 7y ago
If you think it needs to be "regulated out of existence", it sounds like you think it actually is sustainable; you just don't like it. > It is extremely classist. Only something that middle class or higher can use So you think any business which isn't affordable to everyone should be shut down?
- empath75 7y ago
  If I build a factory that dumps toxic sludge into the water supply, that’s not sustainable and yet it might be quite profitable in the absence of regulation.
  - wyager 7y ago
    Airbnb doesn't have massive uninternalized externalities. The preconditions of the Coase theorem are pretty close to being met when it comes to house rental.
- vladvasiliu 7y ago
  I think the part of the sentence missing in your quote ("while reducing housing availability which primarily impacts lower classes") explains his stance. Usually businesses catering to the upper classes don't usually do so at the detriment of "the poor". For example Ferrari selling 100k+ cars doesn't prevent me from buying a cheap car. Homeowners renting to "rich people" prevents a poor person from renting the same apartment. This could of course happen with regular rentals, but the difference is that nobody would pay above market rates for a long-term rental, which is what basically happens with Airbnb.
  - wyager 7y ago
    Why do you say it's "above market" when there's a market for it?
    - vladvasiliu 7y ago
      I mean "above the rates of the long-term rental market". I think the argument is that Airbnb and similar take those apartments from the long-term rental market and put them on the (very) short-term rental market, aka the hotels'. The problem put forward by those arguing against Airbnb is that this is a zero-sum game. If you have tourists who are able and willing to pay more for a flat (aka "middle or higher class"), this reduces housing availability for "the lower classes". You could, of course, argue that this would be true even without Airbnb if enough "higher class" people wanted to live in a given city all of a sudden. I suppose that's why people also tend to be against gentrification.
akirakurusu 7y ago
How is it something only classists can use? I use Airbnb _because_ it is cheap, usually significantly cheaper than hotels when visiting cities. I use it to save money because I am cost conscious. A lot of lower-income friends also use Airbnb because of this very reason. It has been a lifesaver for us.
- kstenerud 7y ago
  Because it removes the place from the rental market. We're not talking about people holidaying; this is about having access to a roof over your head in your daily life.
- typon 7y ago
  You're a tourist going to another city on vacation or other reasons. You're middle class and thus part of the problem for the lower class people of that city.
  - bane 7y ago
    I'm sorry, this is a fantastically ignorant and entitled statement. Poor people often need to travel. I say this as somebody who grew up firmly poor and was even homeless with my entire family for a time.
    - typon 7y ago
      We are talking about the majority of the reason why people use Airbnb. It's used as a replacement for hotels for people on vacation. Of course having a cheap place to stay for people who can't afford hotels when they're traveling is a necessity. That role was traditionally filled by hostels and I'm not sure if Airbnb is a good replacement for that when you look at all the downsides.
      - bane 7y ago
        When my family was homeless, we would have killed to have had the security of an AirBnB available back then. Instead we stayed in a number of different places, many of which were downright dangerous. After we clawed our way out of poverty, my parents were unable to afford to take our family anywhere for over a decade. The first family vacation we ever took we slept in the car and brought all of our own food. Poor people need to take a break also and this terrible vacation was blessed luxury from multiple jobs, daily danger and sickness, and grinding poverty. My extended family is also spread all over thousands of miles as jobs were to be had. A simple visit to meet grandparents, or to meet cousins or other family is not a middle class problem. Poor people have families and loved ones as well. I'm going to say this as respectfully as I can -- you don't know what it means to be poor with unstable housing, and you should think more about speaking for poor people, what you perceive to be their needs, and should stop scolding other people for not being poor.
bane 7y ago
> Only something that middle class or higher can use I think it's more nuanced than that. I've stayed in AirBnBs that were clearly being run as a major source of income by people who otherwise didn't have many options for income (remote areas, Native reservations, etc.). I remember staying in a spare structure in the Navajo nation a few years back, it was run by an elderly couple who were looking after their 3 granddaughters and literally had no other way to make income to support themselves or the girls. They said AirBnB and a prepaid cell phone had literally turned around their entire economic situation. Separately, it has enabled many of my friends who are on the lower end of the economic spectrum to afford to go places with their family as AirBnBs are usually cheaper than hotels and generally larger and often include kitchens (further saving costs eating out while traveling). One of my friends in particular (in his 40s) took his first out-of-state family vacation ever due to this. Before this they never ventured further than a few hours drive from where they lived because they simply couldn't afford it. I also entirely agree that they need to be better regulated, and that they can have a deleterious effect on local housing prices. Japan seems to have taken some serious steps towards finding a good balance of regulation and availability for these things. On a trip to Japan we stayed in hotels and AirBnBs and in every case the BnBs were cheaper, larger, and generally better than the hotels. However, they're only allowed to use them as short-term rentals for 180 days per year, must be licensed and have other restrictions on when they can be used. [1] I don't know if Japan's approach is the right one, but the number of AirBnBs available in Japan make me think that it hasn't destroyed the legitimate marketplace for this type of side income (where AirBnB is at its best) while also making it much harder for people to soak up the local rental market as speculators with "accommodations" being used to reduce risk in their investment portfolio. 1 - https://www.asiaone.com/asia/airbnb-says-forced-cancel-bookings-under-new-japan-law https://www.asiaone.com/asia/airbnb-says-forced-cancel-booki...

wyager 7y ago

> than have a full-time tenant (that has a lot of legal protection regarding eviction) This sounds like a pretty convincing argument against laws that are extremely lopsided in favor of tenants. If you make renting out property an extremely high-risk proposition, of course property owners are going to prefer something less risky.

Raed667 7y ago
I have to disagree there. Feeling safe in your rented apartment from unjustified evictions, doubling rent without notice, or landlord trespassing etc.. is an absolute must.
- wyager 7y ago
  I am safer from all of those things living in a ~completely deregulated housing market than I ever was living in the highly regulated NYC housing market. I couldn't change my apartment keys in NY, but that's expected here in Hong Kong. And how do you define "unjustified eviction"? The criteria for eviction and rent changes are clearly spelled out in the 2 or 3 page contract I signed for my apartment here, unlike the multi-hundred-page legalese nightmare I signed in NYC (once again, thanks to the overbearing "tenant protection" laws).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

wolco 7y ago

Most places make it at the end of your current contract you automatically go month to month. They cannot kick you out.