6 ms·

I don't want to live in a world where my parents and grandparents are expected to pull up Wireshark to figure out if the app they're using will record their fro

I don't want to live in a world where my parents and grandparents are expected to pull up Wireshark to figure out if the app they're using will record their front camera without consent. Blaming Zoom and FB is entirely acceptable here, it is their responsibility to keep my data private. Blaming Apple? Why, when Zoom is on the Play Store as well? https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=us.zoom.videomeetings&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=us.zoom.videom... >As long as you're running binary blobs that can make whatever network connections they please, people are going to take your data and send it to places you don't know about. Surely there are open source video chat solutions already? They haven't taken off for one simple reason: video hosting is expensive. It's quite literally one of the most intensive network activities you can partake in, rivaling torrenting. It doesn't make sense economically to offer a video hosting platform without collecting income from it. Nor does it make sense to attempt a peer-to-peer solution knowing full well that one laggy peer wrecks the experience for everyone else. It's a very hard problem.

judge2020 7y ago
> Blaming Apple? Why, when Zoom is on the Play Store as well? Blame Apple because they constantly tout the iPhone as being "privacy respecting" and "what happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone"[0], while they A. Apple doesn't default to "limit tracking", or at least make "limit tracking" an option on setup/iOS upgrade B. Apple doesn't penalize developers for using Facebook's SDK with auto data collection (ie. punishment by having text like "sends data to: facebook, google, hotjar" on an app's install page) C. Apple doesn't do any software stuff to limit and track the trackers. Having a counter for # of total days a domain name was contacted would be an eye-opener for many, and being able to toggle a "block" on the domain would be a big step forward. Facebook meets the standard for being included in apps (respects the user resetting the usage ID), but that standard isn't the standard privacy-conscious users want. Apple can do better, but whether it be industry pressure or monetary pressure [google paying to be the default search engine], they don't actually put privacy first. 0: https://www.businessinsider.com/apples-ces-ad-las-vegas-misleading-2019-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/apples-ces-ad-las-vegas-misl...
- diminish 7y ago
  > the Facebook SDK was collecting device information unnecessary for us to provide our services. Sorry state of Apple App security and privacy - all your apps are swarms of data collection and privacy abuses. Apple built this world - and Apple is to blame. Zoom is to blame too. And finally individual app developers should also alert everyone on what's truly happening in their apps.
  - girvo 7y ago
    While I have zero love for any given hyper capitalistic business like Apple, Android is not any better on the whole in this space, and in some ways measurably worse (especially when you take into account what devices actually hold the largest market share)
    - tyingq 7y ago
      This is true, but Apple touts how much better they are about Privacy, and charges a premium for it. Google is more up front that they make little money on the initial sale, and are dependent on advertising to make money.
      - Justice4Yall 7y ago
        > Privacy is built in from the beginning. Our products and features include innovative privacy technologies and techniques designed to minimize how much of your data we — or anyone else — can access https://www.apple.com/privacy/features/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/features/ Apple sells privacy, brags about privacy - yet Privacy is abused in from the beginning in the store apps.
        type0 7y ago
        And the lesson is - you can't buy privacy but you can sell it.
      - doctor_eval 7y ago
chispamed 7y ago
Just to take you up on possible FOSS solutions: If anyone is looking for a private and open source video chat platform self-hosting NextCloud [0] might be worth a try. [0]: https://nextcloud.com/talk/ https://nextcloud.com/talk/
- tyingq 7y ago
  Jitsi.org was discussed here recently as well. http://jitsi.org http://jitsi.org
kingludite 7y ago
Cant you put just the dysfunctional peer behind the expensive network magic?
ace_of_spades 7y ago
Why not blame Facebook for being the most data hungry and privacy disrespecting for-profit entity ever known to man? (Google is tied for that spot, Microsoft close third) It‘s a little bit like blaming the person making the deal with the devil. Of course on some level they deserve blame for engaging with evil but evil presenting itself in a slick interface should also get its fair share.
- johannes1234321 7y ago
  Yes, Facebook deserves blame for automatically sending all those things to them, even if an app only wants to provide optional Facebook login for users who opt in. However every app vendor by now should know that Facebook is hungry for data and careless use of Facebook software is to blame in them. As is Apple (and Google) to blame for providing no privacy measures for users.
sneak 7y ago
Little Snitch seems to have solved it fairly well on macOS. Apple doesn’t allow software like that on iOS.
- andrekandre 7y ago
  i wonder if apple configurator “filtering” profile [0] could be used?... [0] https://support.apple.com/en-is/guide/mdm/mdmc77c9609/1/web/1 https://support.apple.com/en-is/guide/mdm/mdmc77c9609/1/web/... maybe some kind of automated little snitch settings ⇄ profile converter?
  - sneak 7y ago
    The problem is the lack of notification/visibility into what hosts to which the app is connecting. It’s possible that your solution might work for some small fraction of users, some of the time, for known spying hosts. Many people still want to access Facebook and Instagram, though.
    - andrekandre 7y ago
      yea... that seems the biggest problem for sure... i really hope apple builds in some mechanism for this soon
- futurix 7y ago
  My copy of Charles on iOS disagrees.
sneak 7y ago
Also, collecting income is and always has been possible without selling/leaking private user data. This is a red herring.
m463 7y ago
> I don't want to live in a world where my parents and grandparents are expected to pull up Wireshark... Their kids should be able to help.
windexh8er 7y ago
>Surely there are open source video chat solutions already? They haven't taken off for one simple reason: video hosting is expensive. It's quite literally one of the most intensive network activities you can partake in, rivaling torrenting. There are, as you state OSS solutions [0]. But the video hosting is not akin to Torrenting. Most people are fine with 720p quality video as you're not "watching" the participants like a movie. And as you scale up the number of users the required bandwidth for each subsequent user goes down in a linear fashion due to reduced screen real estate. A conference with 8 users, from a video perspective doesn't reasonably take up more bandwidth than that of 2 given the smaller stream. I am on almost constant conference meetings with 4-12 users, many times with video and I have a full packet monitoring solution at home and can tell you it's not remotely as intensive as you've claimed here. [0] https://jitsi.org/jitsi-meet/ https://jitsi.org/jitsi-meet/
- gowld 7y ago
  > Most people are fine with 720p quality video as you're not "watching" the participants like a movie. Most people are fine with 720p movies too.
TheKarateKid 7y ago
This whole Zoom revelation reminds me of the Cambridge Analytica scandal. This has been going on for a long time now, and it wasn't until one specific company did it that everyone is now concerned. If you want to be creeped out, go to https://www.facebook.com/off_facebook_activity/ https://www.facebook.com/off_facebook_activity/ and find out how many apps have been quietly reporting all your usage activity to Facebook. I have 100's of websites which managed to identify my Facebook account despite me logging into Facebook only in Incognito for the past 2 years.
- jdeibele 7y ago
  Mine shows nothing: "You have no available activity to show at this time." I have been running Facebook in the special Firefox container pretty much since it was available. I took off the WhatsApp and Instagram apps from my phone months ago. For me, the number of ads (on Instagram) and integration into Facebook made them expendable. I don't know if Facebook really has no information or they do but are not showing it to me. I'd like to do the same with Google but the Google container wants to force all interactions with Google into one container. I've got dedicated containers for different Gmail identities - it was very handy to have a Gmail identity while I was president of the kids' soccer club and then turn the account over to someone else.
unethical_ban 7y ago
> I don't want to live in a world where my parents and grandparents are expected to pull up Wireshark to figure out if the app they're using will record their front camera without consent. It's a "commons" issue. I don't necessarily trust FOSS software because I am going to login to the repo and check the code (though I have once or twice), I trust it because I know thousands of people motiviated by ethics and quality vs. money have peer reviewed the code for things like this. Similar in concept to herd immunity.

judge2020 7y ago

> Blaming Apple? Why, when Zoom is on the Play Store as well? Blame Apple because they constantly tout the iPhone as being "privacy respecting" and "what happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone"[0], while they A. Apple doesn't default to "limit tracking", or at least make "limit tracking" an option on setup/iOS upgrade B. Apple doesn't penalize developers for using Facebook's SDK with auto data collection (ie. punishment by having text like "sends data to: facebook, google, hotjar" on an app's install page) C. Apple doesn't do any software stuff to limit and track the trackers. Having a counter for # of total days a domain name was contacted would be an eye-opener for many, and being able to toggle a "block" on the domain would be a big step forward. Facebook meets the standard for being included in apps (respects the user resetting the usage ID), but that standard isn't the standard privacy-conscious users want. Apple can do better, but whether it be industry pressure or monetary pressure [google paying to be the default search engine], they don't actually put privacy first. 0: https://www.businessinsider.com/apples-ces-ad-las-vegas-misleading-2019-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/apples-ces-ad-las-vegas-misl...

diminish 7y ago
> the Facebook SDK was collecting device information unnecessary for us to provide our services. Sorry state of Apple App security and privacy - all your apps are swarms of data collection and privacy abuses. Apple built this world - and Apple is to blame. Zoom is to blame too. And finally individual app developers should also alert everyone on what's truly happening in their apps.
- girvo 7y ago
  While I have zero love for any given hyper capitalistic business like Apple, Android is not any better on the whole in this space, and in some ways measurably worse (especially when you take into account what devices actually hold the largest market share)
  - tyingq 7y ago
    This is true, but Apple touts how much better they are about Privacy, and charges a premium for it. Google is more up front that they make little money on the initial sale, and are dependent on advertising to make money.
    - Justice4Yall 7y ago
      > Privacy is built in from the beginning. Our products and features include innovative privacy technologies and techniques designed to minimize how much of your data we — or anyone else — can access https://www.apple.com/privacy/features/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/features/ Apple sells privacy, brags about privacy - yet Privacy is abused in from the beginning in the store apps.
      - type0 7y ago
        And the lesson is - you can't buy privacy but you can sell it.
    - doctor_eval 7y ago

chispamed 7y ago

Just to take you up on possible FOSS solutions: If anyone is looking for a private and open source video chat platform self-hosting NextCloud [0] might be worth a try. [0]: https://nextcloud.com/talk/ https://nextcloud.com/talk/

tyingq 7y ago
Jitsi.org was discussed here recently as well. http://jitsi.org http://jitsi.org

kingludite 7y ago

Cant you put just the dysfunctional peer behind the expensive network magic?

ace_of_spades 7y ago

Why not blame Facebook for being the most data hungry and privacy disrespecting for-profit entity ever known to man? (Google is tied for that spot, Microsoft close third) It‘s a little bit like blaming the person making the deal with the devil. Of course on some level they deserve blame for engaging with evil but evil presenting itself in a slick interface should also get its fair share.

johannes1234321 7y ago
Yes, Facebook deserves blame for automatically sending all those things to them, even if an app only wants to provide optional Facebook login for users who opt in. However every app vendor by now should know that Facebook is hungry for data and careless use of Facebook software is to blame in them. As is Apple (and Google) to blame for providing no privacy measures for users.

sneak 7y ago

Little Snitch seems to have solved it fairly well on macOS. Apple doesn’t allow software like that on iOS.

andrekandre 7y ago
i wonder if apple configurator “filtering” profile [0] could be used?... [0] https://support.apple.com/en-is/guide/mdm/mdmc77c9609/1/web/1 https://support.apple.com/en-is/guide/mdm/mdmc77c9609/1/web/... maybe some kind of automated little snitch settings ⇄ profile converter?
- sneak 7y ago
  The problem is the lack of notification/visibility into what hosts to which the app is connecting. It’s possible that your solution might work for some small fraction of users, some of the time, for known spying hosts. Many people still want to access Facebook and Instagram, though.
  - andrekandre 7y ago
    yea... that seems the biggest problem for sure... i really hope apple builds in some mechanism for this soon
futurix 7y ago
My copy of Charles on iOS disagrees.

sneak 7y ago

Also, collecting income is and always has been possible without selling/leaking private user data. This is a red herring.

m463 7y ago

> I don't want to live in a world where my parents and grandparents are expected to pull up Wireshark... Their kids should be able to help.

windexh8er 7y ago

>Surely there are open source video chat solutions already? They haven't taken off for one simple reason: video hosting is expensive. It's quite literally one of the most intensive network activities you can partake in, rivaling torrenting. There are, as you state OSS solutions [0]. But the video hosting is not akin to Torrenting. Most people are fine with 720p quality video as you're not "watching" the participants like a movie. And as you scale up the number of users the required bandwidth for each subsequent user goes down in a linear fashion due to reduced screen real estate. A conference with 8 users, from a video perspective doesn't reasonably take up more bandwidth than that of 2 given the smaller stream. I am on almost constant conference meetings with 4-12 users, many times with video and I have a full packet monitoring solution at home and can tell you it's not remotely as intensive as you've claimed here. [0] https://jitsi.org/jitsi-meet/ https://jitsi.org/jitsi-meet/

gowld 7y ago
> Most people are fine with 720p quality video as you're not "watching" the participants like a movie. Most people are fine with 720p movies too.

TheKarateKid 7y ago

This whole Zoom revelation reminds me of the Cambridge Analytica scandal. This has been going on for a long time now, and it wasn't until one specific company did it that everyone is now concerned. If you want to be creeped out, go to https://www.facebook.com/off_facebook_activity/ https://www.facebook.com/off_facebook_activity/ and find out how many apps have been quietly reporting all your usage activity to Facebook. I have 100's of websites which managed to identify my Facebook account despite me logging into Facebook only in Incognito for the past 2 years.

jdeibele 7y ago
Mine shows nothing: "You have no available activity to show at this time." I have been running Facebook in the special Firefox container pretty much since it was available. I took off the WhatsApp and Instagram apps from my phone months ago. For me, the number of ads (on Instagram) and integration into Facebook made them expendable. I don't know if Facebook really has no information or they do but are not showing it to me. I'd like to do the same with Google but the Google container wants to force all interactions with Google into one container. I've got dedicated containers for different Gmail identities - it was very handy to have a Gmail identity while I was president of the kids' soccer club and then turn the account over to someone else.

unethical_ban 7y ago

> I don't want to live in a world where my parents and grandparents are expected to pull up Wireshark to figure out if the app they're using will record their front camera without consent. It's a "commons" issue. I don't necessarily trust FOSS software because I am going to login to the repo and check the code (though I have once or twice), I trust it because I know thousands of people motiviated by ethics and quality vs. money have peer reviewed the code for things like this. Similar in concept to herd immunity.