6 ms·

Native Americans arrived less than 80,000 years ago. That's a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. They were not the natural predators.

by nroets 7y ago

bryanrasmussen 7y ago
I think the phrase natural predator just means the predator in the environment that keeps some other species in check. 80,000 years may be a blink in an eye in evolutionary terms but it does not take that long for a predator to come into an environment and become entrenched as the natural check on some other species. I would say https://science.sciencemag.org/content/314/5802/1111 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/314/5802/1111 for example of introduction of species something like this https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/285705 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/285705 for how dominance of predator works. However not sure how well the Native Americans were actually keeping animals in check given the many species they have been shown to have helped bring to extinction. That said not sure how long it would take from being a natural predator to being a keystone species.
- cutemonster 7y ago
  @nroets, Humans (the Europeans in this case) made the Dodo bird extinct quite fast, closer to 80 years than 80 000. One doesn't need to be someone's long time natural predator to have an impact
mwaitjmp 7y ago
I believe the accepted period is around 15,000 years ago, possibly slightly earlier.
- netcan 7y ago
  Those dates are in flux recently. As is the pattern in discoveries of our very ancient history... the story gets more complicated as we go. The fallacy that, IMO, we are falling into is (ironically) caused by scientific reductionism... the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. This doesn't work as well for the evidence types paleoanthropology has to work with.
  - toasterlovin 7y ago
    With the advent of ancient DNA, we now have a second, relatively precise type of evidence also pointing at, IIRC, 15-20k years ago as when the initial peopling of the Americas took place.
    - netcan 7y ago
      Initial peopling, or oldest known genetic ancestors of current individuals. Take Israel or Morocco as a comparative example. There were sapiens there before Neanderthals, but they are not thought to be ancestral to any modern people. The majority are not. This makes intuitive sense when thinking of species or subspecies (eg Neanderthals), but it works the same with populations. Also, it's easy to think of ourselves in permanent "infinite growth" mide, where we colonise and dominate. But, recent years aside, humans bloomed and receded just like other species. Range expanding and contracting. Just because a population is in the same place does not mean that it's ancestral. The first, second or eighteenth population may have no current ancestors... or none in that area. As Dawkins puts it "descendants are common, ancestors are rare."
Eric_WVGG 7y ago
perhaps I’m misunderstanding you, but humans are believed to have hunted many, many animals to extinction on the American content millennia before the Europeans got here. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/06/010608081621.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/06/010608081621.h...

Native Americans arrived less than 80,000 years ago. That's a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. They were not the natural predators.

by nroets 7y ago

Native Americans arrived less than 80,000 years ago. That's a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. They were not the natural predators.

bryanrasmussen 7y ago

I think the phrase natural predator just means the predator in the environment that keeps some other species in check. 80,000 years may be a blink in an eye in evolutionary terms but it does not take that long for a predator to come into an environment and become entrenched as the natural check on some other species. I would say https://science.sciencemag.org/content/314/5802/1111 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/314/5802/1111 for example of introduction of species something like this https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/285705 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/285705 for how dominance of predator works. However not sure how well the Native Americans were actually keeping animals in check given the many species they have been shown to have helped bring to extinction. That said not sure how long it would take from being a natural predator to being a keystone species.

cutemonster 7y ago
@nroets, Humans (the Europeans in this case) made the Dodo bird extinct quite fast, closer to 80 years than 80 000. One doesn't need to be someone's long time natural predator to have an impact

mwaitjmp 7y ago

I believe the accepted period is around 15,000 years ago, possibly slightly earlier.

netcan 7y ago
Those dates are in flux recently. As is the pattern in discoveries of our very ancient history... the story gets more complicated as we go. The fallacy that, IMO, we are falling into is (ironically) caused by scientific reductionism... the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. This doesn't work as well for the evidence types paleoanthropology has to work with.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  With the advent of ancient DNA, we now have a second, relatively precise type of evidence also pointing at, IIRC, 15-20k years ago as when the initial peopling of the Americas took place.
  - netcan 7y ago
    Initial peopling, or oldest known genetic ancestors of current individuals. Take Israel or Morocco as a comparative example. There were sapiens there before Neanderthals, but they are not thought to be ancestral to any modern people. The majority are not. This makes intuitive sense when thinking of species or subspecies (eg Neanderthals), but it works the same with populations. Also, it's easy to think of ourselves in permanent "infinite growth" mide, where we colonise and dominate. But, recent years aside, humans bloomed and receded just like other species. Range expanding and contracting. Just because a population is in the same place does not mean that it's ancestral. The first, second or eighteenth population may have no current ancestors... or none in that area. As Dawkins puts it "descendants are common, ancestors are rare."

Eric_WVGG 7y ago

perhaps I’m misunderstanding you, but humans are believed to have hunted many, many animals to extinction on the American content millennia before the Europeans got here. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/06/010608081621.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/06/010608081621.h...