4 ms·

>Getting mad at Zoom for using the Facebook SDK is missing the point. It's really hard to believe this point given that... getting mad seems to have worked.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
Doesn't scale. We can't have 1,000,000 front page "App X uses Y SDK" posts. People will stop caring. Nobody's made a post of that flavor in awhile, and Zoom got caught in the crossfire. Honestly, if anything it shields other apps. People have a limited capacity for repeatedly addressing the same thing.
- kyawzazaw 7y ago
  I think it doesn't always have to scale. Zoom is a huge player right now and in great usage across all industries, countries and users.
  - JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
    That's a great point. The 80-20 rule likely applies here. Of all instances of beaconing events, the bulk of those events originate from a small number of popular apps.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Really?!? If it wasn't for this post I wouldn't even know that they exist.
    - kyawzazaw 7y ago
      What industry do you work in and what country are you in right now?
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Fortune 500 consulting, European Union market. Webex, Teams, Slack are the only ones that matter.
        raverbashing 7y ago
        "Webex, Teams" Yeah some companies are behind the curve (not blaming you). Zoom is getting very popular
        madwhitehatter 7y ago
        From security perspective, Companies do not like the fact that Zoom was developed in China and the vast majority of its R&D is still in China. China has different rules on security than many other countries. Particularly surrounding intellectual property. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1585521/000119312519083351/d642624ds1.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1585521/000119312519... "Top of page 21- In addition, we have a high concentration of research and development personnel in China, which could expose us to market scrutiny regarding the integrity of our solution or data security features. Any security compromise in our industry, whether actual or perceived, could harm our reputation, erode confidence in the effectiveness of our security measures, negatively affect our ability to attract new customers and hosts, cause existing customers to elect not to renew their subscriptions or subject us to third-party lawsuits, regulatory fines or other action or liability, which could harm our business."
        lultimouomo 7y ago
        I'd guess you work mainly with slower players (the mention of webex surely suggests so). Zoom as been very much on the rise for a year or so, and is riding the coronavirus WFH wave very well. IME quality is better than competitors, but boy do they use dark patterns. Finding the link to the web version in the meeting page becomes harder every day.
    - KarlKemp 7y ago
      In that case, I should probably tell you that it’s a good idea to wash your hands. Check any news outlet to know why, and you’re likely to also read about zoom in some article.
- Certhas 7y ago
  That's exactly what laws are for.
- krrrh 7y ago
  I pay $20 a month for Zoom and consider it a business product. Collecting analytics via Facebook is unacceptable in this context.
  - spunker540 7y ago
    Would any cloud-hosted analytics be acceptable? Is it just Facebook that’s problematic? What if they switched from client-side analytics to server-side so you couldn’t detect it all? Would that be any better? The bottom line is when you use a service, that data is their data to send to whomever they want.
    - eitland 7y ago
      > The bottom line is when you use a service, that data is their data to send to whomever they want. No. That's all that really needs to be said about it but I'll add a couple of more lines here so no one thinks I'm lazy or posting a shallow dismissal: - First, just because someone trusts you it doesn't mean you are free to abuse them. This should go without saying! - Second: In Europe and I think California as well this is also illegal.
mikenew 7y ago
My point is that you've removed one instance of the Facebook SDK from your phone, but you still have 50 others. Plus probably hundreds of other analytics frameworks that you've never even heard of that are just as bad or worse.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  A journey begins with a single step. As a community, we suss our and shame the rest into removal. If shame doesn’t work, those in California try using the CCPA. We’re all stuck inside for a while, this is the perfect time to act. One app and SDK at a time.
  - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
    I could get behind that but am sure people get tired - both the activists and sheer mass of people who would need to get convinced. During covid nobody is paying attention and we have the additional problem that they're trying to use cellphone location data to enforce social distancing! Once this is in effect it will be difficult to undo because the next epidemic will be "just around the corner" ...
- dannyr 7y ago
  So if you can't stop ALL of them, you stop NONE of them.
  - enitihas 7y ago
    No, you attack the systematic problem and don't become happy by fixing one of them, since it is a hollow victory, and public outrage has limited capacity for repeated posts of "app x is sending to Facebook".
    - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
      honest question: _how_ do we attack the underlying systematic problem to solve it once and for all? write a blog post? take it twitter/HN/reddit? hold a rally/demonstration outside Apple/Google? call our MP? bombard their employees with phone calls or knock on their front door where they live? write malware? ... really I got nothing that sounds like it would work. In retrospect all of Tim Cook's privacy / security grandstanding and attitude of superiority was just that. There are no good guys in this game.
floatingatoll 7y ago
No, raising widespread awareness seems to have worked. Getting mad reduces the chances of someone responding usefully.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago

Doesn't scale. We can't have 1,000,000 front page "App X uses Y SDK" posts. People will stop caring. Nobody's made a post of that flavor in awhile, and Zoom got caught in the crossfire. Honestly, if anything it shields other apps. People have a limited capacity for repeatedly addressing the same thing.

kyawzazaw 7y ago
I think it doesn't always have to scale. Zoom is a huge player right now and in great usage across all industries, countries and users.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  That's a great point. The 80-20 rule likely applies here. Of all instances of beaconing events, the bulk of those events originate from a small number of popular apps.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Really?!? If it wasn't for this post I wouldn't even know that they exist.
  - kyawzazaw 7y ago
    What industry do you work in and what country are you in right now?
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Fortune 500 consulting, European Union market. Webex, Teams, Slack are the only ones that matter.
      - raverbashing 7y ago
        "Webex, Teams" Yeah some companies are behind the curve (not blaming you). Zoom is getting very popular
        madwhitehatter 7y ago
        From security perspective, Companies do not like the fact that Zoom was developed in China and the vast majority of its R&D is still in China. China has different rules on security than many other countries. Particularly surrounding intellectual property. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1585521/000119312519083351/d642624ds1.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1585521/000119312519... "Top of page 21- In addition, we have a high concentration of research and development personnel in China, which could expose us to market scrutiny regarding the integrity of our solution or data security features. Any security compromise in our industry, whether actual or perceived, could harm our reputation, erode confidence in the effectiveness of our security measures, negatively affect our ability to attract new customers and hosts, cause existing customers to elect not to renew their subscriptions or subject us to third-party lawsuits, regulatory fines or other action or liability, which could harm our business."
      - lultimouomo 7y ago
        I'd guess you work mainly with slower players (the mention of webex surely suggests so). Zoom as been very much on the rise for a year or so, and is riding the coronavirus WFH wave very well. IME quality is better than competitors, but boy do they use dark patterns. Finding the link to the web version in the meeting page becomes harder every day.
  - KarlKemp 7y ago
    In that case, I should probably tell you that it’s a good idea to wash your hands. Check any news outlet to know why, and you’re likely to also read about zoom in some article.
Certhas 7y ago
That's exactly what laws are for.
krrrh 7y ago
I pay $20 a month for Zoom and consider it a business product. Collecting analytics via Facebook is unacceptable in this context.
- spunker540 7y ago
  Would any cloud-hosted analytics be acceptable? Is it just Facebook that’s problematic? What if they switched from client-side analytics to server-side so you couldn’t detect it all? Would that be any better? The bottom line is when you use a service, that data is their data to send to whomever they want.
  - eitland 7y ago
    > The bottom line is when you use a service, that data is their data to send to whomever they want. No. That's all that really needs to be said about it but I'll add a couple of more lines here so no one thinks I'm lazy or posting a shallow dismissal: - First, just because someone trusts you it doesn't mean you are free to abuse them. This should go without saying! - Second: In Europe and I think California as well this is also illegal.

mikenew 7y ago

My point is that you've removed one instance of the Facebook SDK from your phone, but you still have 50 others. Plus probably hundreds of other analytics frameworks that you've never even heard of that are just as bad or worse.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
A journey begins with a single step. As a community, we suss our and shame the rest into removal. If shame doesn’t work, those in California try using the CCPA. We’re all stuck inside for a while, this is the perfect time to act. One app and SDK at a time.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  I could get behind that but am sure people get tired - both the activists and sheer mass of people who would need to get convinced. During covid nobody is paying attention and we have the additional problem that they're trying to use cellphone location data to enforce social distancing! Once this is in effect it will be difficult to undo because the next epidemic will be "just around the corner" ...
dannyr 7y ago
So if you can't stop ALL of them, you stop NONE of them.
- enitihas 7y ago
  No, you attack the systematic problem and don't become happy by fixing one of them, since it is a hollow victory, and public outrage has limited capacity for repeated posts of "app x is sending to Facebook".
  - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
    honest question: _how_ do we attack the underlying systematic problem to solve it once and for all? write a blog post? take it twitter/HN/reddit? hold a rally/demonstration outside Apple/Google? call our MP? bombard their employees with phone calls or knock on their front door where they live? write malware? ... really I got nothing that sounds like it would work. In retrospect all of Tim Cook's privacy / security grandstanding and attitude of superiority was just that. There are no good guys in this game.

floatingatoll 7y ago

No, raising widespread awareness seems to have worked. Getting mad reduces the chances of someone responding usefully.