4 ms·

Robinhood accused of offering snafu credits to squelch suit

70 points by rococode 7y ago

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> accused of offering a “$75 goodwill credit” to dupe customers into waiving their legal rights Curious to see what the e-mails look like. On one hand, settling a claim is a real thing. The present value of $75 may exceed the expected claim the recipients would receive out of the suit. On the other hand, we're in the midst of record joblessness and a pandemic-induced liquidity squeeze. If it's dangling cash without informed consent, it could be construed as bad-faith negotiating.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Some have received far more after rejecting this offer, in some case thousands of dollars depending on the loss demonstrated. (/r/wsb)
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > Some have received far more after rejecting this offer.../r/wsb This is rational for Robinhood, so I'm not dubious. But is there a reliable source?
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      Only folks I’ve talked to on Reddit, no one has provided a settlement agreement and proof of payout. I’ll ask around if someone is willing to show docs.
      - kevindong 7y ago
        This Reddit post [0] provided a screenshot of the agreement [1] which, if real, is surprisingly short. [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/fox6cr/robinhood_settlement_compensation_from_outage/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/fox6cr/robi... [1]: https://preview.redd.it/6jrlfyiuqvo41.png?width=661&format=png&auto=webp&s=952adf73b544ae07091d5b12fe9bd782505ba31c https://preview.redd.it/6jrlfyiuqvo41.png?width=661&format=p...
  - kevindong 7y ago
    This Reddit post has some data points on (compensation) : (alleged loss) https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/founsb/robinhood_goodwill_credit/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/founsb/robi...
- londons_explore 7y ago
  Would anyone have a robust legal claim against them anyway? I doubt Robinhood made any service availability guarantee direct to their customers, and their commitments as a financial institution presumably don't have strict by-the-minute commitments. Unless it could be proven Robinhood deliberately stopped service to advantage themselves, I don't think anyone has a claim against them. In fact, even if Robinhood halted service for their own gain, it isn't clearcut.
Proven 7y ago
Oh well, another crypto scandal in making. I wonder why is this so upvoted, like it impacts more than 0.1% of people. Who cares what happens with Robinhood. In theory you shouldn't use crypto for trading (and keep money at centralized exchanges) but there's no other use case so people were to listen and not do that, 1 BTC would still be 40 bucks and most of the rest wouldn't exist.
brentis 7y ago
Given how they monetize their users, i wouldnt be suprised if it was to dupe customers.
AndrewBissell 7y ago
Between this kind of chicanery and their constant coding goofs, keeping your money at Robinhood just seems like a great way to wind up standing in line at SIPC waiting for your account to be reimbursed someday. Now that they've pushed lots of other brokers into fee-free trading I don't know what the appeal is. I worked in algorithmic trading for about 4 years. In that time, I witnessed the market find and exploit the tiniest, most inconsequential-seeming bugs in my code in ways I could never have imagined or planned for. Finance and "move fast and break things" just do not mix. Someday, I expect to see a news headline about how some HFT sharks on Wall Street found a way to take Robinhood and its clients for billions, and that will be the end of it.
- tathougies 7y ago
  Yup, you can get fee free trading at so many reputable, long-lived brokers, why bother with Robinhood?
  - jdminhbg 7y ago
    I don't have a Robinhood account, but presumably the fact that Robinhood's free trading was what forced all its competitors to eliminate commissions means that lots of people had accounts there before that and kept them due to inertia.
  - basch 7y ago
    Compared to Schwab and Fidelity, Robinhood still acts mobile first, as opposed to a desktop site condensed for a phone. It's not a good reason to use it for something like this, but the experience is much more fluid and pleasant.
- meesterdude 7y ago
  Interesting - can you share more about the bugs you found in your code that were being exploited?
  - AndrewBissell 7y ago
    I was an inexperienced coder at the time working at a very small shop, so bear in mind that this kind of thing is less likely (though as Knight Capital demonstrated, not impossible) at larger, professional algo trading firms. One good example is, I had written some code to automatically stop me out of a position if it ran too far against me. I was trading Kospi 200 options, and about a week after Kim Jong-il died, someone started a rumor that his son had been assassinated and Chinese troops were massing on the Korean border. The market plummeted violently, and all my put offers were instantly lifted and bid very far against me. The code path which I had intended to use to send my stop loss orders was inadvertently disabled by a safety flag which I had applied to stop sending a different kind of entry order known as "electronic eye" trade (which basically tried to pick off mis-valued bids and offers rather than make a two sided market). So I didn't hedge anything as the market kept crashing and eventually liquidity went poof and I was left to manually close out a bunch of large short put positions. Luckily the market came back after the rumor was discredited, but I still lost about a quarter of my year's trading profits in one day in November.
gowld 7y ago
I wouldn't worry. Class action suits almost always settle for a large amount but tiny per class member. So by buying off some people early, the remainder each get a larger share of the class action settlement.
theartfuldodger 7y ago
On their previous outage/lockout they offered me a $75 gift card. I included the same offer email as a forward to finra and they offered me $725 shortly after. I accepted. They may have lost me the opportunity to have had 10k profit, but maybe I wouldn't have held, who knows, but by a fluke I came out 2.5k ahead after being locked out of my account for 3 days. I took all my cash out that day so didnt have anything in play for this outage. I actually tried to transfer in money that morning but that failed too.

70 points by rococode 7y ago

> accused of offering a “$75 goodwill credit” to dupe customers into waiving their legal rights Curious to see what the e-mails look like. On one hand, settling a claim is a real thing. The present value of $75 may exceed the expected claim the recipients would receive out of the suit. On the other hand, we're in the midst of record joblessness and a pandemic-induced liquidity squeeze. If it's dangling cash without informed consent, it could be construed as bad-faith negotiating.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Some have received far more after rejecting this offer, in some case thousands of dollars depending on the loss demonstrated. (/r/wsb)
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > Some have received far more after rejecting this offer.../r/wsb This is rational for Robinhood, so I'm not dubious. But is there a reliable source?
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Only folks I’ve talked to on Reddit, no one has provided a settlement agreement and proof of payout. I’ll ask around if someone is willing to show docs.
    - kevindong 7y ago
      This Reddit post [0] provided a screenshot of the agreement [1] which, if real, is surprisingly short. [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/fox6cr/robinhood_settlement_compensation_from_outage/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/fox6cr/robi... [1]: https://preview.redd.it/6jrlfyiuqvo41.png?width=661&format=png&auto=webp&s=952adf73b544ae07091d5b12fe9bd782505ba31c https://preview.redd.it/6jrlfyiuqvo41.png?width=661&format=p...
- kevindong 7y ago
  This Reddit post has some data points on (compensation) : (alleged loss) https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/founsb/robinhood_goodwill_credit/ https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/comments/founsb/robi...
londons_explore 7y ago
Would anyone have a robust legal claim against them anyway? I doubt Robinhood made any service availability guarantee direct to their customers, and their commitments as a financial institution presumably don't have strict by-the-minute commitments. Unless it could be proven Robinhood deliberately stopped service to advantage themselves, I don't think anyone has a claim against them. In fact, even if Robinhood halted service for their own gain, it isn't clearcut.

Proven 7y ago

Oh well, another crypto scandal in making. I wonder why is this so upvoted, like it impacts more than 0.1% of people. Who cares what happens with Robinhood. In theory you shouldn't use crypto for trading (and keep money at centralized exchanges) but there's no other use case so people were to listen and not do that, 1 BTC would still be 40 bucks and most of the rest wouldn't exist.

brentis 7y ago

Given how they monetize their users, i wouldnt be suprised if it was to dupe customers.

AndrewBissell 7y ago

Between this kind of chicanery and their constant coding goofs, keeping your money at Robinhood just seems like a great way to wind up standing in line at SIPC waiting for your account to be reimbursed someday. Now that they've pushed lots of other brokers into fee-free trading I don't know what the appeal is. I worked in algorithmic trading for about 4 years. In that time, I witnessed the market find and exploit the tiniest, most inconsequential-seeming bugs in my code in ways I could never have imagined or planned for. Finance and "move fast and break things" just do not mix. Someday, I expect to see a news headline about how some HFT sharks on Wall Street found a way to take Robinhood and its clients for billions, and that will be the end of it.

tathougies 7y ago
Yup, you can get fee free trading at so many reputable, long-lived brokers, why bother with Robinhood?
- jdminhbg 7y ago
  I don't have a Robinhood account, but presumably the fact that Robinhood's free trading was what forced all its competitors to eliminate commissions means that lots of people had accounts there before that and kept them due to inertia.
- basch 7y ago
  Compared to Schwab and Fidelity, Robinhood still acts mobile first, as opposed to a desktop site condensed for a phone. It's not a good reason to use it for something like this, but the experience is much more fluid and pleasant.
meesterdude 7y ago
Interesting - can you share more about the bugs you found in your code that were being exploited?
- AndrewBissell 7y ago
  I was an inexperienced coder at the time working at a very small shop, so bear in mind that this kind of thing is less likely (though as Knight Capital demonstrated, not impossible) at larger, professional algo trading firms. One good example is, I had written some code to automatically stop me out of a position if it ran too far against me. I was trading Kospi 200 options, and about a week after Kim Jong-il died, someone started a rumor that his son had been assassinated and Chinese troops were massing on the Korean border. The market plummeted violently, and all my put offers were instantly lifted and bid very far against me. The code path which I had intended to use to send my stop loss orders was inadvertently disabled by a safety flag which I had applied to stop sending a different kind of entry order known as "electronic eye" trade (which basically tried to pick off mis-valued bids and offers rather than make a two sided market). So I didn't hedge anything as the market kept crashing and eventually liquidity went poof and I was left to manually close out a bunch of large short put positions. Luckily the market came back after the rumor was discredited, but I still lost about a quarter of my year's trading profits in one day in November.

gowld 7y ago

I wouldn't worry. Class action suits almost always settle for a large amount but tiny per class member. So by buying off some people early, the remainder each get a larger share of the class action settlement.

theartfuldodger 7y ago

On their previous outage/lockout they offered me a $75 gift card. I included the same offer email as a forward to finra and they offered me $725 shortly after. I accepted. They may have lost me the opportunity to have had 10k profit, but maybe I wouldn't have held, who knows, but by a fluke I came out 2.5k ahead after being locked out of my account for 3 days. I took all my cash out that day so didnt have anything in play for this outage. I actually tried to transfer in money that morning but that failed too.