4 ms·

Fourth time this has popped up. Here is the previous discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22688058 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22688058

noncoml 7y ago
I think HN rules allow this since it wasn't really discussed before.
coretx 7y ago
It's no coincidence that his is being pushed so aggressively. This change is about to break tons of userland & competition, just not at Microsoft.
- ggm 7y ago
  Break userland? Sorry.. explanation?
  - wtallis 7y ago
    I think he said "break" where it would have been more accurate to say "obsolete". I can see either one inspiring similar emotions from anyone too invested in the current hard ways of dealing with exFAT.
  - coretx 7y ago
    Differences in implementations already cause problems. Adding one will not mitigate this problem, only worsen it. A bit like this https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/ Furthermore, anything contemporary should steer away from this heavily outdated technology unless they desire to accumulate even more technical debt.
    - ggm 7y ago
      I hate DOS as much as the next UNIX person but in filesystems it pays to be nuanced. We need to be able to swap data across OS and read/write enabled FS support for >4GB partitions with sensible names not 8.3 and with ACLS and even being able to boot from them would be nice. I wouldn't choose to live in exVFAT but I would welcome integration of support.
      - coretx 7y ago
        All those arguments are valid and where already somewhere around 2k. Today, many more matter. Prominently the FS being aware of it being at flash storage or magnetic etc. We surely should oppose artificially prolonging the *fat shelf life. Edit: @Guy claiming exFAT was developed for flash drives. Not sure if your clever spindoktering is astroturfing or trolling. >_<
        ComputerGuru 7y ago
        That’s nice. Seeing as exFAT was developed for flash drives, it seems like you should be happy with that :)
        nordsieck 7y ago
        > Prominently the FS being aware of it being at flash storage or magnetic etc. We surely should oppose artificially prolonging the fat shelf life. All of those are good things in isolation. However, the reality is, Linux/BSD/etc. doesn't have the marketshare to push any filesystem cross platform. Any filesystem with the characteristics you want that goes cross platform will start on MacOS (unlikely) or Windows (much, much more likely). Until then, people need a way to accomplish tasks and exFat is the best we've got today for cross platform flash storage. * I suppose it's possible it could come from Android or iOS, although iOS is pretty unlikely since it's so hostile to the idea of filesystems. For this to happen, though, it would have to be a regular task to plug flash drives into phones. That is currently not the case and won't be the case in the near future.
      - zozbot234 7y ago
        You're not going to be able to boot from exFAT partitions: the UEFI boot partition spec is strictly based on plain old FAT format, not the new exFAT.
        ggm 7y ago
        Its good to have dreams. It took a few years but PS/2 dropped from the supply chain mobo. We might move on from multi-voltage power supplies in the next decade. I think people don't use 3.5" floppy drives any more. Or parallel ports. So yes: the UEFI boot spec is FAT. Once, we didn't have UEFI and maybe once, in the future, boot spec won't be locked in FAT.

noncoml 7y ago

I think HN rules allow this since it wasn't really discussed before.

coretx 7y ago

It's no coincidence that his is being pushed so aggressively. This change is about to break tons of userland & competition, just not at Microsoft.

ggm 7y ago
Break userland? Sorry.. explanation?
- wtallis 7y ago
  I think he said "break" where it would have been more accurate to say "obsolete". I can see either one inspiring similar emotions from anyone too invested in the current hard ways of dealing with exFAT.
- coretx 7y ago
  Differences in implementations already cause problems. Adding one will not mitigate this problem, only worsen it. A bit like this https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/ Furthermore, anything contemporary should steer away from this heavily outdated technology unless they desire to accumulate even more technical debt.
  - ggm 7y ago
    I hate DOS as much as the next UNIX person but in filesystems it pays to be nuanced. We need to be able to swap data across OS and read/write enabled FS support for >4GB partitions with sensible names not 8.3 and with ACLS and even being able to boot from them would be nice. I wouldn't choose to live in exVFAT but I would welcome integration of support.
    - coretx 7y ago
      All those arguments are valid and where already somewhere around 2k. Today, many more matter. Prominently the FS being aware of it being at flash storage or magnetic etc. We surely should oppose artificially prolonging the *fat shelf life. Edit: @Guy claiming exFAT was developed for flash drives. Not sure if your clever spindoktering is astroturfing or trolling. >_<
      - ComputerGuru 7y ago
        That’s nice. Seeing as exFAT was developed for flash drives, it seems like you should be happy with that :)
      - nordsieck 7y ago
        > Prominently the FS being aware of it being at flash storage or magnetic etc. We surely should oppose artificially prolonging the fat shelf life. All of those are good things in isolation. However, the reality is, Linux/BSD/etc. doesn't have the marketshare to push any filesystem cross platform. Any filesystem with the characteristics you want that goes cross platform will start on MacOS (unlikely) or Windows (much, much more likely). Until then, people need a way to accomplish tasks and exFat is the best we've got today for cross platform flash storage. * I suppose it's possible it could come from Android or iOS, although iOS is pretty unlikely since it's so hostile to the idea of filesystems. For this to happen, though, it would have to be a regular task to plug flash drives into phones. That is currently not the case and won't be the case in the near future.
    - zozbot234 7y ago
      You're not going to be able to boot from exFAT partitions: the UEFI boot partition spec is strictly based on plain old FAT format, not the new exFAT.
      - ggm 7y ago
        Its good to have dreams. It took a few years but PS/2 dropped from the supply chain mobo. We might move on from multi-voltage power supplies in the next decade. I think people don't use 3.5" floppy drives any more. Or parallel ports. So yes: the UEFI boot spec is FAT. Once, we didn't have UEFI and maybe once, in the future, boot spec won't be locked in FAT.