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Show HN: Japan's mask culture saves lives. The West needs to adopt mask culture

tpmx 7y ago
The normally extremely anti-racist newspapers in Sweden have some very weird racist thoughts about the use of masks in Asia. It's just plain idiotic. The thinking tends to go something like: "Oh, that's just asians doing things without any scientific grounding out of group think. I know that because I read an article in The Guardian which said that wearing a mask is not a 100% protection against getting infected, so because of that they are ignorant." The messaging has also become confused by journalist-activists attempting to do some public good by saying masks are meaningless, just so that the public doesn't hoard the masks that the people in healthcare needs.
- dmlittle 7y ago
  > wearing a mask is not a 100% protection against getting infected Most things are never 100% safe. Wearing a seatbelt does not guarantee you won't be injured in case of an accident, it's still something everyone recognizes it's a good thing to wear. I wonder what the tipping point is in terms of something being silly to do vs. it makes sense to do it for the general public. I would guess that social stigma plays a big role in it.
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    It's an example of fallacious thinking, "if it's not 100% effective, that means it's 0% effective".
    - mantas 7y ago
      Yet test-test-test mantra is beloved even if it's far from 100% either. I've a feeling that West may prefer to externalise work vs Far East taking personal responsibility. Someone has to do tests, but god forbid I wear mask.
    - notahacker 7y ago
      Yep. There are certain circumstances when if it's not completely effective, don't bother might be a valid heuristic, like taking completely unnecessary risks simply because you have a mask to reduce them. But reluctance to wearing masks in the West isn't coupled with a commonsense avoidance of risks altogether..
    - ksk 7y ago
      And then you end up with proposing hand-towels, bandanas and scarfs ...
d3ntb3ev1l 7y ago
A lot of the mask usages in Japan are to help with allergies
dgrin91 7y ago
Isn't this the epitome of causation vs correlation? I'm not saying masks don't help, but this site doesn't say or link to why masks are the way. For example, Japan has over double the population of SK, yet SK has ~9x more cases. Yet both are "high mask-wearing culture". And of course, China, which is "medium", breaks this model heavily. Masks didn't help. Lockdowns helped.
- mantas 7y ago
  And both have situation under control compared to Italy or Spain. Even if they're literally next door to China and were exposed much earlier.
- fasteddie31003 7y ago
  I totally agree that this is nothing more than correlation at this point. I'm all for a double-blind study and would love to better quantify mask-wearing. I am saying: wearing masks seems like an easy thing to do that could potentially limit the COVID-19 infection rate.
  - mbreese 7y ago
    And it could also give people a false sense of security. Masks may be helpful, but only in concert with other practices. Distancing is going to have a much larger impact on limiting the viral spread. If you have a bunch of people wearing masks that are only partially effective start gathering in large groups, you run the risk of negating all of the good generated from distancing.
    - svara 7y ago
      The "false sense of security" point needs evidence the same way that we need evidence on whether masks are beneficial or not. There's evidence for the latter, and, to the best of my knowledge, only speculation on the former point. Either way, no one is advocating for mask wearing to replace other mitigation measures.
    - xiphias2 7y ago
ajankelo 7y ago
Here is a growing list of 30+ papers that back up the efficacy of masks: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4pt4oFDBhsC_jpblXpNtQ/edit# https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4p...
mbreese 7y ago
I think you're confounding a lot of variables here... the way that Japan and South Korea have dealt with the virus are in many ways different than the way that it was handled in Italy and the US. Masks aren't necessarily as important as some of those other factors, including general cultural tendencies, such as listening to government advice or willingness to adhere to limits on movement. It's also misleading to include the Surgeon General's tweet on this subject. This is in very specific context to having a limited supply of masks and trying to reserve them for the most at risk populations.
seltzered_ 7y ago
A few points: - There's an ongoing effort to promote civilian use of masks, see: https://www.facebook.com/groups/640968383371577 https://www.facebook.com/groups/640968383371577 and their document 'Hong Kong Protocol" https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mvc6evI2qzU3M8MkrLSqKJBTO8bmzIFgqP7FkJT-tkI/mobilebasic?1= https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mvc6evI2qzU3M8MkrLSqKJBT... - The Surgeon General may be saying not to wear masks because they have to be done correctly, you don't want to try and buy an N95 mask (at time of this writing in USA) because: - First responders in the US need N95 respirators right now! I donated mine and plan to make a cloth mask. - You might be wearing it wrong! See NIOSH's guide on facial hairstyle and respirators: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/pdfs/FacialHairWmask11282017-508.pdf - You need to dispose or disinfect after use. - Most importantly, if you're wearing an N95 with a valve, you may just be spreading the virus out if you're an asymptomatic carrier. - People are currently looking into the best mask to wear, see https://twitter.com/lucasgonzalez/status/1242468271825313792 https://twitter.com/lucasgonzalez/status/1242468271825313792 & https://twitter.com/magghu/status/1241361090954571781 https://twitter.com/magghu/status/1241361090954571781 I'm onboard with your overall message, but think it needs to be crafted a bit better.
2T1Qka0rEiPr 7y ago
I'm sorry, but the proof made on this site in support of the efficacy of wearing a face mask appears to be simply looking at a small sample of countries and finding a correlation between two variables. Completely putting the should we shouldn't we debate to one side, I'm not sure this site really contributes to this discussion in a scientific/novel way...
- nerfhammer 7y ago
  Country-sized groups of people are not small samples. There may be other biases but that's not one of them.
  - viklove 7y ago
    Why don't we look at Mexico and try to draw some conclusions? None of this data is useful as long as governments continue to stifle the freedom of information. Every country is hiding numbers from the international community, I'm not so sure we can trust Japan's numbers (or anyone's) to be honest...
theredbox 7y ago
CzechoSlovakia is at this point where everyone is using masks But I guess we are still east so it does not count ;-)
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jpatrickpark 7y ago
Japan has low number of confirmed cases because they barely tested anyone. For example, from Feb 1st to March 18th, Japan had over 160k people who wanted to get tested, and they tested only about 5k people among them (news.bizwatch.co.kr/article/industry/2020/03/23/0001).
spqr0a1 7y ago
Meanwhile in New York, the worst hit state in America, masks of all sorts have been illegal in public for the last 175 years. https://newyorkhistoryblog.org/2013/10/halloween-history-new-yorks-anti-mask-law/ https://newyorkhistoryblog.org/2013/10/halloween-history-new... https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/240.35 https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/240.35
stevavoliajvar 7y ago
Iran doesn't have 80k cases https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/iran/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/iran/
- detaro 7y ago
  same number as shown for Italy, so copy-paste mishap?
  - stevavoliajvar 7y ago
    can be, hopefully they will fix it
alanfranz 7y ago
You know, in Italy you could not buy a face mask since mid January. Yes, if it were in our culture we would stockpile them at home. But I can assure everybody would use one since February, if we could get some.
tpmx 7y ago
So some fxxers flagged this thread? Again showing why HN sucks in any emergency situation. There will always be two people who strongly disagree. (It seems like two flags is enough to kill any post.)
asdz 7y ago
I'm Asian and travelling in UK around mid Feb. I'm wearing a surgical mask and everyone is giving me a weird look, there's even a male driver who take picture of me as I cross the traffic light.
nojvek 7y ago
I don't think people are against masks. The message is that we don't have enough masks for everyone. Because they are so limited, doctors and healthcare workers are at the highest risk, since they are exposed to the virus the most. Please make masks available for them as they'll have the best use for masks. They can save themselves and other people having the biggest impact. Singapore is a small country and had capacity to distribute masks to everyone. US is at a much larger scale. I'm sure if we have a billion masks, we'd be giving a couple to everyone. Masks are definitely effective, but US is so grossly underprepared for this pandemic that we really have to make a tough choice. Our manufacturing economy has been going downhill as we've been offshoring things to China and other countries. This is a huge blow when we can't build things that are dire to save us.
talonbragg 7y ago
This entire site is an argumentative fallacy. There are many other factors involved in the spreading of viruses. Masks are not going to solve the problem and forcing people to start wearing masks isn't going to make people believe that it is a solution.
lazylizard 7y ago
Singapore does not have a mask wearing culture. Neither has it told everyone to stay home. But it has closed borders n pubs.
mcnamaratw 7y ago
Why is this flagged? Please look at the data (at link).
JoshuaEddy 7y ago
Singapore should not be circled. Singapore haven't distributed masks, they don't mandate masks, they only encourage masks for sick/hospital, and NYT said on Mar 13 "most... do not wear masks out, because the government has told them it’s not needed".

tpmx 7y ago

The normally extremely anti-racist newspapers in Sweden have some very weird racist thoughts about the use of masks in Asia. It's just plain idiotic. The thinking tends to go something like: "Oh, that's just asians doing things without any scientific grounding out of group think. I know that because I read an article in The Guardian which said that wearing a mask is not a 100% protection against getting infected, so because of that they are ignorant." The messaging has also become confused by journalist-activists attempting to do some public good by saying masks are meaningless, just so that the public doesn't hoard the masks that the people in healthcare needs.

dmlittle 7y ago
> wearing a mask is not a 100% protection against getting infected Most things are never 100% safe. Wearing a seatbelt does not guarantee you won't be injured in case of an accident, it's still something everyone recognizes it's a good thing to wear. I wonder what the tipping point is in terms of something being silly to do vs. it makes sense to do it for the general public. I would guess that social stigma plays a big role in it.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  It's an example of fallacious thinking, "if it's not 100% effective, that means it's 0% effective".
  - mantas 7y ago
    Yet test-test-test mantra is beloved even if it's far from 100% either. I've a feeling that West may prefer to externalise work vs Far East taking personal responsibility. Someone has to do tests, but god forbid I wear mask.
  - notahacker 7y ago
    Yep. There are certain circumstances when if it's not completely effective, don't bother might be a valid heuristic, like taking completely unnecessary risks simply because you have a mask to reduce them. But reluctance to wearing masks in the West isn't coupled with a commonsense avoidance of risks altogether..
  - ksk 7y ago
    And then you end up with proposing hand-towels, bandanas and scarfs ...

d3ntb3ev1l 7y ago

A lot of the mask usages in Japan are to help with allergies

dgrin91 7y ago

Isn't this the epitome of causation vs correlation? I'm not saying masks don't help, but this site doesn't say or link to why masks are the way. For example, Japan has over double the population of SK, yet SK has ~9x more cases. Yet both are "high mask-wearing culture". And of course, China, which is "medium", breaks this model heavily. Masks didn't help. Lockdowns helped.

mantas 7y ago
And both have situation under control compared to Italy or Spain. Even if they're literally next door to China and were exposed much earlier.
fasteddie31003 7y ago
I totally agree that this is nothing more than correlation at this point. I'm all for a double-blind study and would love to better quantify mask-wearing. I am saying: wearing masks seems like an easy thing to do that could potentially limit the COVID-19 infection rate.
- mbreese 7y ago
  And it could also give people a false sense of security. Masks may be helpful, but only in concert with other practices. Distancing is going to have a much larger impact on limiting the viral spread. If you have a bunch of people wearing masks that are only partially effective start gathering in large groups, you run the risk of negating all of the good generated from distancing.
  - svara 7y ago
    The "false sense of security" point needs evidence the same way that we need evidence on whether masks are beneficial or not. There's evidence for the latter, and, to the best of my knowledge, only speculation on the former point. Either way, no one is advocating for mask wearing to replace other mitigation measures.
  - xiphias2 7y ago

ajankelo 7y ago

Here is a growing list of 30+ papers that back up the efficacy of masks: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4pt4oFDBhsC_jpblXpNtQ/edit# https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4p...

mbreese 7y ago

I think you're confounding a lot of variables here... the way that Japan and South Korea have dealt with the virus are in many ways different than the way that it was handled in Italy and the US. Masks aren't necessarily as important as some of those other factors, including general cultural tendencies, such as listening to government advice or willingness to adhere to limits on movement. It's also misleading to include the Surgeon General's tweet on this subject. This is in very specific context to having a limited supply of masks and trying to reserve them for the most at risk populations.

seltzered_ 7y ago

A few points: - There's an ongoing effort to promote civilian use of masks, see: https://www.facebook.com/groups/640968383371577 https://www.facebook.com/groups/640968383371577 and their document 'Hong Kong Protocol" https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mvc6evI2qzU3M8MkrLSqKJBTO8bmzIFgqP7FkJT-tkI/mobilebasic?1= https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mvc6evI2qzU3M8MkrLSqKJBT... - The Surgeon General may be saying not to wear masks because they have to be done correctly, you don't want to try and buy an N95 mask (at time of this writing in USA) because: - First responders in the US need N95 respirators right now! I donated mine and plan to make a cloth mask. - You might be wearing it wrong! See NIOSH's guide on facial hairstyle and respirators: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/pdfs/FacialHairWmask11282017-508.pdf - You need to dispose or disinfect after use. - Most importantly, if you're wearing an N95 with a valve, you may just be spreading the virus out if you're an asymptomatic carrier. - People are currently looking into the best mask to wear, see https://twitter.com/lucasgonzalez/status/1242468271825313792 https://twitter.com/lucasgonzalez/status/1242468271825313792 & https://twitter.com/magghu/status/1241361090954571781 https://twitter.com/magghu/status/1241361090954571781 I'm onboard with your overall message, but think it needs to be crafted a bit better.

2T1Qka0rEiPr 7y ago

I'm sorry, but the proof made on this site in support of the efficacy of wearing a face mask appears to be simply looking at a small sample of countries and finding a correlation between two variables. Completely putting the should we shouldn't we debate to one side, I'm not sure this site really contributes to this discussion in a scientific/novel way...

nerfhammer 7y ago
Country-sized groups of people are not small samples. There may be other biases but that's not one of them.
- viklove 7y ago
  Why don't we look at Mexico and try to draw some conclusions? None of this data is useful as long as governments continue to stifle the freedom of information. Every country is hiding numbers from the international community, I'm not so sure we can trust Japan's numbers (or anyone's) to be honest...

theredbox 7y ago

CzechoSlovakia is at this point where everyone is using masks But I guess we are still east so it does not count ;-)

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

jpatrickpark 7y ago

Japan has low number of confirmed cases because they barely tested anyone. For example, from Feb 1st to March 18th, Japan had over 160k people who wanted to get tested, and they tested only about 5k people among them (news.bizwatch.co.kr/article/industry/2020/03/23/0001).

spqr0a1 7y ago

Meanwhile in New York, the worst hit state in America, masks of all sorts have been illegal in public for the last 175 years. https://newyorkhistoryblog.org/2013/10/halloween-history-new-yorks-anti-mask-law/ https://newyorkhistoryblog.org/2013/10/halloween-history-new... https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/240.35 https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/240.35

stevavoliajvar 7y ago

Iran doesn't have 80k cases https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/iran/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/iran/

detaro 7y ago
same number as shown for Italy, so copy-paste mishap?
- stevavoliajvar 7y ago
  can be, hopefully they will fix it

alanfranz 7y ago

You know, in Italy you could not buy a face mask since mid January. Yes, if it were in our culture we would stockpile them at home. But I can assure everybody would use one since February, if we could get some.

tpmx 7y ago

So some fxxers flagged this thread? Again showing why HN sucks in any emergency situation. There will always be two people who strongly disagree. (It seems like two flags is enough to kill any post.)

asdz 7y ago

I'm Asian and travelling in UK around mid Feb. I'm wearing a surgical mask and everyone is giving me a weird look, there's even a male driver who take picture of me as I cross the traffic light.

nojvek 7y ago

I don't think people are against masks. The message is that we don't have enough masks for everyone. Because they are so limited, doctors and healthcare workers are at the highest risk, since they are exposed to the virus the most. Please make masks available for them as they'll have the best use for masks. They can save themselves and other people having the biggest impact. Singapore is a small country and had capacity to distribute masks to everyone. US is at a much larger scale. I'm sure if we have a billion masks, we'd be giving a couple to everyone. Masks are definitely effective, but US is so grossly underprepared for this pandemic that we really have to make a tough choice. Our manufacturing economy has been going downhill as we've been offshoring things to China and other countries. This is a huge blow when we can't build things that are dire to save us.

talonbragg 7y ago

This entire site is an argumentative fallacy. There are many other factors involved in the spreading of viruses. Masks are not going to solve the problem and forcing people to start wearing masks isn't going to make people believe that it is a solution.

lazylizard 7y ago

Singapore does not have a mask wearing culture. Neither has it told everyone to stay home. But it has closed borders n pubs.

mcnamaratw 7y ago

Why is this flagged? Please look at the data (at link).

JoshuaEddy 7y ago

Singapore should not be circled. Singapore haven't distributed masks, they don't mandate masks, they only encourage masks for sick/hospital, and NYT said on Mar 13 "most... do not wear masks out, because the government has told them it’s not needed".