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“General Mental Ability (GMA) tests (like the IQ test) are very predictive of future job performance, largely because people with high intelligence can learn th

“General Mental Ability (GMA) tests (like the IQ test) are very predictive of future job performance, largely because people with high intelligence can learn the skills needed to be successful on the job more rapidly. However, due to legal concerns they’re not recommended for companies hiring in the US.” This is what a classic FAANG interview is: an IQ test which is disguised as a relevant skills test for legal reasons. And they work quite well.

saagarjha 7y ago
Do they?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- new_realist 7y ago
  They’re the worst form of interview, except for all the other ones.
  - amznthrowaway5 7y ago
    Why not just give an actual IQ test?
    - jedmeyers 7y ago
      Not allowed by law.
      - dominotw 7y ago
        > IQ tests (for interviewing) are typically spatial comparisons, some math, logic puzzles, reading comprehension, and pattern recognition I definitely got these in tech interviews. Thoughtworks gave me one last year.
        jedmeyers 7y ago
        It might have been a de facto IQ test, but they should have disguised it carefully.
    - bitwize 7y ago
      That opens you up to liability for race-based discrimination. The accepted wisdom is that IQ tests are inherently racist and favor white evaluees over black and brown ones.
      - amznthrowaway5 7y ago
        Wouldn't coding interviews show the same bias?
        lmkg 7y ago
        The difference is, the Supreme Court has already made a ruling on IQ tests.
        vbezhenar 7y ago
        Isn't this ruling inherently racist?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - bmn__ 7y ago
        That's formulated the wrong way. An IQ test per se cannot be racist because it is not a human being with intentional behaviour. This means blame must fall on the test designer or test conductor to introduce a racist biasing. In places where accurate results matter, the best available methods of psychometrics are used: http://enwp.org/Progressive_Matrices http://enwp.org/Progressive_Matrices These are free of bias: culture, language, reading/writing ability does not matter. If these are used and assuming the test conductor did not screw up, and if white evaluees score better than black and brown ones, then it is an objective measurement of reality, not racism. Thus I think the "accepted wisdom" is wrong. If you know of any examples of racism through IQ tests, indicating intention, I'd be glad to hear of them.
        pjscott 7y ago
        I agree, but it's not obvious that courts would agree, and lawsuits are expensive even if you win. The legal liability worries are still there, alas.
m3kw9 7y ago
That’s what they think, there is a bias when all you do is the same interviews. Is like eating Your fav cake from the same bakery and thinking that is the best in the world
ForHackernews 7y ago
My first job out of university was answering tech support calls and the interview process was primarily based on the Wonderlic test[0] (famously given to NFL players). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_test
jamespollack 7y ago
by "classic" do you mean the "if you were stuck in a blender?" questions? you haven't interviewed in a while if you think they're asking those. it's all standard DS&A whiteboarding, etc. there's nothing even close to resembling a general aptitude test
vsareto 7y ago
FAANG coding interviews are definitely not IQ tests. IQ tests (for interviewing) are typically spatial comparisons, some math, logic puzzles, reading comprehension, and pattern recognition and are done so under a time budget of around 30s to 1 minute per question FAANG coding requires CS basics - hashmaps, arrays, sorting strategies, trees, recusion, basic ops for all of the data structures, and a few other concepts. There are typically only a handful of questions with 60 - 90 minutes per question
- derefr 7y ago
  That's why the parent said that they're "disguised" IQ tests. If they used a test that strongly correlated with the outcome of an IQ test, then it would also, legally, be an IQ test, and they'd have to stop doing it. So instead, they use a test that weakly correlates with the outcome of an IQ test, and then try to extract the a measure of IQ from the "noise" that is all the other variables the test depends on.
  - vsareto 7y ago
    IQ has nothing to do with whether you know CS basics or not, that's the problem. It doesn't matter that they said it's a disguised IQ test because it's not an IQ test in any fashion.
    - iateanapple 7y ago
      > IQ has nothing to do with whether you know CS basics or not, that's the problem. In practice the Google/Facebook interview has nothing to do with knowing the CS basics either. Edit: In practice understanding CS basics is the baseline that gets you to the interview - kind of like English is the baseline for an IQ test delivered in English.
      - oreally 7y ago
        > In practice the Google/Facebook interview has nothing to do with knowing the CS basics either. What the heck is this statement? You do realize many algorithms that they test for are taught in an algorithms class for a Computer Science course? I doubt you took an IQ test before or even properly accessed what it is. there are IQ tests composed of entirely of pattern matching shapes and they do not have any knowledge/language prerequisites. Get outta my internet.
dominotw 7y ago
you can pass every facebook iterview by practicing facebook tagged questions on leetcode. People do that every single day, here is an example from today https://leetcode.com/discuss/interview-question/551434/facebook-phone-android-software-engineer-odd-even-ll-remove-duplicates-from-sorted-array/ https://leetcode.com/discuss/interview-question/551434/faceb... Its NOT related to IQ. You can search leetcode forum for tons of examples of actual FB questions, all of them are tagged on leetcode.
- xenihn 7y ago
  You can get better at IQ tests by practicing them.
  - oreally 7y ago
    What a loaded statement. 1) You're already assuming these FAANG tests are an IQ test when people are discussing whether they are. 2) You're taking an assumed characteristic that tests that can be practiced and that makes them IQ tests. Practicing for these tests makes you a rote learner and and rote learners by definition have too much crystallized knowledge, and they fail when met with new situations, which is not what intelligence tries to define. FAANG tests hence are not IQ tests if you can practice them. Essentially these assumptions that FAANG tests are disguised IQ tests are just a reflection of the ego of those who are perpetuating them. Anyone who feels like replying to this out of emotion they because they're in FAANG or whatever should take a psychology/psychometrics class first (yes, something outside of the software sector) before replying.
    - xenihn 7y ago
      Your post makes absolutely no sense given that you can practice for IQ tests and improve your score on them. This isn't up for debate. You can improve things measured by IQ tests (i.e. spatial reasoning and pattern recognition) without rote. You can also improve them with rote. You can improve them with or without another person helping you as a mentor/tutor. It doesn't matter which one you do, the end result is the same if you invest enough time.
driverdan 7y ago
I'd rather have a hard worker with an average IQ than someone who's lazy with a high IQ. Besides, IQ tests have biases that don't translate to good job performance. For example, if English isn't your first language you may do worse on an English-based IQ test.
- geoffroberts 7y ago
  Agreed. Ambition is an intangible that should also be assessed during the hiring process.
- LyndsySimon 7y ago
  Have you by chance read anything by Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord? He’d strongly disagree with you: > I distinguish four types. There are clever, hardworking, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever and hardworking; their place is the General Staff. The next ones are stupid and lazy; they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the mental clarity and strength of nerve necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is both stupid and hardworking; he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always only cause damage.
  - oreally 7y ago
    This is a quote from one man's experience and you're going to treat it as though it's the answer to his concerns? really?

saagarjha 7y ago

Do they?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
new_realist 7y ago
They’re the worst form of interview, except for all the other ones.
- amznthrowaway5 7y ago
  Why not just give an actual IQ test?
  - jedmeyers 7y ago
    Not allowed by law.
    - dominotw 7y ago
      > IQ tests (for interviewing) are typically spatial comparisons, some math, logic puzzles, reading comprehension, and pattern recognition I definitely got these in tech interviews. Thoughtworks gave me one last year.
      - jedmeyers 7y ago
        It might have been a de facto IQ test, but they should have disguised it carefully.
  - bitwize 7y ago
    That opens you up to liability for race-based discrimination. The accepted wisdom is that IQ tests are inherently racist and favor white evaluees over black and brown ones.
    - amznthrowaway5 7y ago
      Wouldn't coding interviews show the same bias?
      - lmkg 7y ago
        The difference is, the Supreme Court has already made a ruling on IQ tests.
        vbezhenar 7y ago
        Isn't this ruling inherently racist?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - bmn__ 7y ago
      That's formulated the wrong way. An IQ test per se cannot be racist because it is not a human being with intentional behaviour. This means blame must fall on the test designer or test conductor to introduce a racist biasing. In places where accurate results matter, the best available methods of psychometrics are used: http://enwp.org/Progressive_Matrices http://enwp.org/Progressive_Matrices These are free of bias: culture, language, reading/writing ability does not matter. If these are used and assuming the test conductor did not screw up, and if white evaluees score better than black and brown ones, then it is an objective measurement of reality, not racism. Thus I think the "accepted wisdom" is wrong. If you know of any examples of racism through IQ tests, indicating intention, I'd be glad to hear of them.
      - pjscott 7y ago
        I agree, but it's not obvious that courts would agree, and lawsuits are expensive even if you win. The legal liability worries are still there, alas.

m3kw9 7y ago

That’s what they think, there is a bias when all you do is the same interviews. Is like eating Your fav cake from the same bakery and thinking that is the best in the world

ForHackernews 7y ago

My first job out of university was answering tech support calls and the interview process was primarily based on the Wonderlic test[0] (famously given to NFL players). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_test

jamespollack 7y ago

by "classic" do you mean the "if you were stuck in a blender?" questions? you haven't interviewed in a while if you think they're asking those. it's all standard DS&A whiteboarding, etc. there's nothing even close to resembling a general aptitude test

vsareto 7y ago

FAANG coding interviews are definitely not IQ tests. IQ tests (for interviewing) are typically spatial comparisons, some math, logic puzzles, reading comprehension, and pattern recognition and are done so under a time budget of around 30s to 1 minute per question FAANG coding requires CS basics - hashmaps, arrays, sorting strategies, trees, recusion, basic ops for all of the data structures, and a few other concepts. There are typically only a handful of questions with 60 - 90 minutes per question

derefr 7y ago
That's why the parent said that they're "disguised" IQ tests. If they used a test that strongly correlated with the outcome of an IQ test, then it would also, legally, be an IQ test, and they'd have to stop doing it. So instead, they use a test that weakly correlates with the outcome of an IQ test, and then try to extract the a measure of IQ from the "noise" that is all the other variables the test depends on.
- vsareto 7y ago
  IQ has nothing to do with whether you know CS basics or not, that's the problem. It doesn't matter that they said it's a disguised IQ test because it's not an IQ test in any fashion.
  - iateanapple 7y ago
    > IQ has nothing to do with whether you know CS basics or not, that's the problem. In practice the Google/Facebook interview has nothing to do with knowing the CS basics either. Edit: In practice understanding CS basics is the baseline that gets you to the interview - kind of like English is the baseline for an IQ test delivered in English.
    - oreally 7y ago
      > In practice the Google/Facebook interview has nothing to do with knowing the CS basics either. What the heck is this statement? You do realize many algorithms that they test for are taught in an algorithms class for a Computer Science course? I doubt you took an IQ test before or even properly accessed what it is. there are IQ tests composed of entirely of pattern matching shapes and they do not have any knowledge/language prerequisites. Get outta my internet.

dominotw 7y ago

you can pass every facebook iterview by practicing facebook tagged questions on leetcode. People do that every single day, here is an example from today https://leetcode.com/discuss/interview-question/551434/facebook-phone-android-software-engineer-odd-even-ll-remove-duplicates-from-sorted-array/ https://leetcode.com/discuss/interview-question/551434/faceb... Its NOT related to IQ. You can search leetcode forum for tons of examples of actual FB questions, all of them are tagged on leetcode.

xenihn 7y ago
You can get better at IQ tests by practicing them.
- oreally 7y ago
  What a loaded statement. 1) You're already assuming these FAANG tests are an IQ test when people are discussing whether they are. 2) You're taking an assumed characteristic that tests that can be practiced and that makes them IQ tests. Practicing for these tests makes you a rote learner and and rote learners by definition have too much crystallized knowledge, and they fail when met with new situations, which is not what intelligence tries to define. FAANG tests hence are not IQ tests if you can practice them. Essentially these assumptions that FAANG tests are disguised IQ tests are just a reflection of the ego of those who are perpetuating them. Anyone who feels like replying to this out of emotion they because they're in FAANG or whatever should take a psychology/psychometrics class first (yes, something outside of the software sector) before replying.
  - xenihn 7y ago
    Your post makes absolutely no sense given that you can practice for IQ tests and improve your score on them. This isn't up for debate. You can improve things measured by IQ tests (i.e. spatial reasoning and pattern recognition) without rote. You can also improve them with rote. You can improve them with or without another person helping you as a mentor/tutor. It doesn't matter which one you do, the end result is the same if you invest enough time.

driverdan 7y ago

I'd rather have a hard worker with an average IQ than someone who's lazy with a high IQ. Besides, IQ tests have biases that don't translate to good job performance. For example, if English isn't your first language you may do worse on an English-based IQ test.

geoffroberts 7y ago
Agreed. Ambition is an intangible that should also be assessed during the hiring process.
LyndsySimon 7y ago
Have you by chance read anything by Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord? He’d strongly disagree with you: > I distinguish four types. There are clever, hardworking, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever and hardworking; their place is the General Staff. The next ones are stupid and lazy; they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the mental clarity and strength of nerve necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is both stupid and hardworking; he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always only cause damage.
- oreally 7y ago
  This is a quote from one man's experience and you're going to treat it as though it's the answer to his concerns? really?