12 ms·

I've worked as a programmer for 15 years. I did a Philosophy degree. I can run circles around some programmers with a CS degree. CS degrees have always been a

I've worked as a programmer for 15 years. I did a Philosophy degree. I can run circles around some programmers with a CS degree. CS degrees have always been an odd qualification, mainly because so much of it is completely unrelated to professional programming. You can get a high mark and still be unable to write a non-trivial program on your own. When I originally started doing my Chemistry degree, we did huge amounts of lab work compared to the odd class or two CS students did. You don't come out of uni a good progammer if you study CS, while you will come out of uni a good chemist, biologist or engineer. And that really sums up the problem with this line of argument.

basementcat 7y ago
A famous Dutchman once opined that a CS degree has as much to do with teaching programming as an astronomy degree has to do with teaching the construction of telescopes.
commandlinefan 7y ago
> You don't come out of uni a good progammer if you study CS Do you think that this is untrue of boot camps?
- mattmanser 7y ago
  Well, no, but it's roughly the same amount of time you'll spend on learning programming in a CS degree. And you're not going to be able to pass it because you can pontificate at length about compiler design or explain what a linked list is, but flunked the practicals because none of your code even compiled. One guy I worked with a long time ago that we hired would give us all these huge lectures about the right DB design and when to use structs or classes. Had an opinion on the right way to do everything. But he didn't seem to be clearing many bugs, and then our company fired him after 3 months when they realized in his main project to get our dropbox-esque system talking with Word he'd written a whole 10 lines of code. Could talk the talk, but couldn't walk the walk.
new2628 7y ago
Forget about CS degree, I once worked with a CS postdoc, now a professor at a top US university, who prided himself of never having written a program.
scottLobster 7y ago
There are individuals who on their own can get all the education they need from free public resources. These are the people who can get a college degree's worth of education out of a public library on their own. They represent an infinitesimal minority of the population. Most people, even people with CS degrees lack that discipline. At least the CS degree forces them to learn some fundamentals so that they can potentially understand what they're looking at and learn on the job, and demonstrates at least a moderate interest in the subject as a vocation. In my experience most people who graduate from bootcamps (in general, some are better than others) are all about getting a job as soon as possible. They're expecting a 6 figure salary within a year, and are willing/able to put in 70+ hour weeks for a few months to get there. Not knocking that perspective, but they'll lack a lot of background outside of their very specific niche and will likely be less adaptable, particularly on any highly technical subjects where some level of theory is required. IMO the wave of "Software Engineering" degrees that are trickling out into the universities are probably the ideal. Full 4 year accredited degree that focuses on practical software development and less on the theory and mathematics. Let the CS-degrees focus on research/academics in the fashion of schools of Arts and Science and leave the Engineering to the Engineering schools.
entee 7y ago
Not sure what CS degrees you're talking about, but having done both a Biochemistry and a CS degree as an undergraduate, your description doesn't comport with what I've seen. I had on average about one lab class a semester as a Biochemist, and on average one programming class a semester as a CS. You couldn't pass the CS class without being able to write code that worked and got more complicated by the end of the semester. By no means did this mean I (or anyone else) was an awesome software engineer by virtue of doing the degree, but I'd put almost anyone with a decent grade from my undergrad program into an entry level position. Same deal with Chemists or Biochemists. I've done a bunch of hiring and can say often bootcamp grads are less able to come up with a sophisticated answer to a problem they haven't studied before. I say this also as a grad of Insight, a DS bootcamp of sorts.
- mattmanser 7y ago
  An actual chemistry degree will have 3 labs a week, all afternoon. Every week. Whatever mickey mouse "biochemistry" degree you did, it was bullshit.
  - craftinator 7y ago
    You go Matt, don't let this Pleb get off thinking he sacrificed nearly enough time or life experiences to be one of the l33t! Get him bulldog! He was probably spending all that extra time doing namby pamby "personal projects" or "relationship building"! He's not a REAL engineer!
  - entee 7y ago
    Not entirely sure whether you're kidding, but however mickey mouse it was, it did end up as a precursor to earning a biochemistry PhD at a top ranked university so I guess the joke's on them!

basementcat 7y ago

A famous Dutchman once opined that a CS degree has as much to do with teaching programming as an astronomy degree has to do with teaching the construction of telescopes.

commandlinefan 7y ago

> You don't come out of uni a good progammer if you study CS Do you think that this is untrue of boot camps?

mattmanser 7y ago
Well, no, but it's roughly the same amount of time you'll spend on learning programming in a CS degree. And you're not going to be able to pass it because you can pontificate at length about compiler design or explain what a linked list is, but flunked the practicals because none of your code even compiled. One guy I worked with a long time ago that we hired would give us all these huge lectures about the right DB design and when to use structs or classes. Had an opinion on the right way to do everything. But he didn't seem to be clearing many bugs, and then our company fired him after 3 months when they realized in his main project to get our dropbox-esque system talking with Word he'd written a whole 10 lines of code. Could talk the talk, but couldn't walk the walk.

new2628 7y ago

Forget about CS degree, I once worked with a CS postdoc, now a professor at a top US university, who prided himself of never having written a program.

scottLobster 7y ago

There are individuals who on their own can get all the education they need from free public resources. These are the people who can get a college degree's worth of education out of a public library on their own. They represent an infinitesimal minority of the population. Most people, even people with CS degrees lack that discipline. At least the CS degree forces them to learn some fundamentals so that they can potentially understand what they're looking at and learn on the job, and demonstrates at least a moderate interest in the subject as a vocation. In my experience most people who graduate from bootcamps (in general, some are better than others) are all about getting a job as soon as possible. They're expecting a 6 figure salary within a year, and are willing/able to put in 70+ hour weeks for a few months to get there. Not knocking that perspective, but they'll lack a lot of background outside of their very specific niche and will likely be less adaptable, particularly on any highly technical subjects where some level of theory is required. IMO the wave of "Software Engineering" degrees that are trickling out into the universities are probably the ideal. Full 4 year accredited degree that focuses on practical software development and less on the theory and mathematics. Let the CS-degrees focus on research/academics in the fashion of schools of Arts and Science and leave the Engineering to the Engineering schools.

entee 7y ago

Not sure what CS degrees you're talking about, but having done both a Biochemistry and a CS degree as an undergraduate, your description doesn't comport with what I've seen. I had on average about one lab class a semester as a Biochemist, and on average one programming class a semester as a CS. You couldn't pass the CS class without being able to write code that worked and got more complicated by the end of the semester. By no means did this mean I (or anyone else) was an awesome software engineer by virtue of doing the degree, but I'd put almost anyone with a decent grade from my undergrad program into an entry level position. Same deal with Chemists or Biochemists. I've done a bunch of hiring and can say often bootcamp grads are less able to come up with a sophisticated answer to a problem they haven't studied before. I say this also as a grad of Insight, a DS bootcamp of sorts.

mattmanser 7y ago
An actual chemistry degree will have 3 labs a week, all afternoon. Every week. Whatever mickey mouse "biochemistry" degree you did, it was bullshit.
- craftinator 7y ago
  You go Matt, don't let this Pleb get off thinking he sacrificed nearly enough time or life experiences to be one of the l33t! Get him bulldog! He was probably spending all that extra time doing namby pamby "personal projects" or "relationship building"! He's not a REAL engineer!
- entee 7y ago
  Not entirely sure whether you're kidding, but however mickey mouse it was, it did end up as a precursor to earning a biochemistry PhD at a top ranked university so I guess the joke's on them!