4 ms·

Contact tracing [1] is difficult in the middle of a pandemic from a cost-benefit standpoint. [1]: https://www.who.int/features/qa/contact-tracing/en/ https://w

Contact tracing [1] is difficult in the middle of a pandemic from a cost-benefit standpoint. [1]: https://www.who.int/features/qa/contact-tracing/en/ https://www.who.int/features/qa/contact-tracing/en/ But if we succeed with strong enough measures to suppress COVID-19 within a few months, contact tracing will be critical to reduce the risk of rebound as we reopen our society. I propose that Apple and Google together gets a head start on contact tracing. Singapore released the TraceTogether app (Android, iOS) for its citizens, but ideally we could have a tool deployed by default in Android and iOS. Does anyone know if Google and Apple are working on this? (Apple’s Find My solution — with public keys broadcast and collected whether phone/GPS is on/off — might contain the right building blocks for contact tracing. But I’d leave it to top engineers at Apple and Google to build a better solution than what I can come up with alone.)

Alex3917 7y ago
> Does anyone know if Google and Apple are working on this? It would probably illegal to create an app for contact tracing. E.g. it's legal for Apple to have an iPhone app called Reminders, but if they were marketing it as a tool to help people to remember to take their medication then that would be illegal because it hasn't undergone testing to prove that it increases medication adherence or whatever. That's why the FDA banned doctors from using checklists to remind them to wash their hands before surgery.
- graeme 7y ago
  That’s the sort of regulation that needs to be relaxed in an emergency.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  if they were marketing it as a tool to help people to remember to take their medication then that would be illegal because it hasn't undergone testing to prove that it increases medication adherence or whatever I doubt those little plastic M-T-W-H-F-A-U pill organizers went through any FDA clearance. /Some days when I wake up, that's the only way I know what day it is.
- closeparen 7y ago
  Source for the checklist thing? Can’t find it.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  > help people to remember to take their medication then that would be illegal Not sure about that. I've had just such an app installed on my iPhone.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  The FDA did not ban doctors from using checklists. They shut down a specific study of checklists that didn't get informed consent. This article asserts that that was the wrong call, but your claim that the FDA has banned them is incorrect. https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/opinion/30gawande.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/opinion/30gawande.html
  - Alex3917 7y ago
    OK fair, I misremembered exactly what happened. I'm still not convinced a contact tracing app would be legal though, given that it could lead people to seek medical attention who might not otherwise need or benefit from it. Didn't Apple talk about how they needed to work with the FDA to get their ECG functionality approved?
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      An ECG is obviously a medical device. A contact tracing app is far less obviously in that category. It might be, but it might fall under various exemptions, with the right disclaimers. https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/device-software-functions-including-mobile-medical-applications/examples-mobile-apps-are-not-medical-devices https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/device-software-function... https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/policy-device-software-functions-and-mobile-medical-applications https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidan... > Many software functions are not medical devices (meaning such software functions do not meet the definition of a device under section 201(h) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FD&C Act)), and FDA does not regulate them as devices. Some software functions may meet the definition of a medical device, but because they pose a lower risk to the public, FDA intends to exercise enforcement discretion over these devices (meaning it will not enforce requirements under the FD&C Act).
vbezhenar 7y ago
That's terrible from a privacy standpoint. May be I don't want to give up my location.
- divbzero 7y ago
  Ideally the goal would be a privacy respecting solution that saves lives. This is the approach Singapore is taking with their TraceTogether app: [1] [2] “TraceTogether uses Bluetooth signals to determine if you are near another TraceTogether user. Your Bluetooth proximity data is encrypted and stored only on your phone. The Ministry of Health (MOH) will seek your consent to upload the data, if it’s needed for contact tracing.” “If you had close contact with a COVID-19 case, TraceTogether allows the MOH call you more quickly, to provide guidance and care.” “TraceTogether helps us protect our loved ones and families so that we do not spread the virus to them unknowingly. It also helps us support the work of contact tracers and healthcare workers by combating the spread of COVID-19 together.” “TraceTogether's functionality will be suspended after the epidemic subsides.” [1]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=sg.gov.tech.bluetrace https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=sg.gov.tech.bl... "Android" [2]: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/tracetogether/id1498276074 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/tracetogether/id1498276074 "iOS"
  - r00fus 7y ago
    I would somewhat trust Apple with a properly privacy-enabled (ie, strongly anonymized) solution (it's part of their brand) I am not sure I would trust Google.
- skybrian 7y ago
  Maybe you don't want to cancel your wedding or close your business either, but the health department can tell you that you must. Consent is not everything when public health is on the line. It seems like single-issue privacy advocacy is going to get even less traction than before.
  - vbezhenar 7y ago
    So let's monitor everyone just because some theoretical terrorists might blew up something. This is old talk.

Alex3917 7y ago

> Does anyone know if Google and Apple are working on this? It would probably illegal to create an app for contact tracing. E.g. it's legal for Apple to have an iPhone app called Reminders, but if they were marketing it as a tool to help people to remember to take their medication then that would be illegal because it hasn't undergone testing to prove that it increases medication adherence or whatever. That's why the FDA banned doctors from using checklists to remind them to wash their hands before surgery.

graeme 7y ago
That’s the sort of regulation that needs to be relaxed in an emergency.
reaperducer 7y ago
if they were marketing it as a tool to help people to remember to take their medication then that would be illegal because it hasn't undergone testing to prove that it increases medication adherence or whatever I doubt those little plastic M-T-W-H-F-A-U pill organizers went through any FDA clearance. /Some days when I wake up, that's the only way I know what day it is.
closeparen 7y ago
Source for the checklist thing? Can’t find it.
rootusrootus 7y ago
> help people to remember to take their medication then that would be illegal Not sure about that. I've had just such an app installed on my iPhone.
ceejayoz 7y ago
The FDA did not ban doctors from using checklists. They shut down a specific study of checklists that didn't get informed consent. This article asserts that that was the wrong call, but your claim that the FDA has banned them is incorrect. https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/opinion/30gawande.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/opinion/30gawande.html
- Alex3917 7y ago
  OK fair, I misremembered exactly what happened. I'm still not convinced a contact tracing app would be legal though, given that it could lead people to seek medical attention who might not otherwise need or benefit from it. Didn't Apple talk about how they needed to work with the FDA to get their ECG functionality approved?
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    An ECG is obviously a medical device. A contact tracing app is far less obviously in that category. It might be, but it might fall under various exemptions, with the right disclaimers. https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/device-software-functions-including-mobile-medical-applications/examples-mobile-apps-are-not-medical-devices https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/device-software-function... https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/policy-device-software-functions-and-mobile-medical-applications https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidan... > Many software functions are not medical devices (meaning such software functions do not meet the definition of a device under section 201(h) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FD&C Act)), and FDA does not regulate them as devices. Some software functions may meet the definition of a medical device, but because they pose a lower risk to the public, FDA intends to exercise enforcement discretion over these devices (meaning it will not enforce requirements under the FD&C Act).

vbezhenar 7y ago

That's terrible from a privacy standpoint. May be I don't want to give up my location.

divbzero 7y ago
Ideally the goal would be a privacy respecting solution that saves lives. This is the approach Singapore is taking with their TraceTogether app: [1] [2] “TraceTogether uses Bluetooth signals to determine if you are near another TraceTogether user. Your Bluetooth proximity data is encrypted and stored only on your phone. The Ministry of Health (MOH) will seek your consent to upload the data, if it’s needed for contact tracing.” “If you had close contact with a COVID-19 case, TraceTogether allows the MOH call you more quickly, to provide guidance and care.” “TraceTogether helps us protect our loved ones and families so that we do not spread the virus to them unknowingly. It also helps us support the work of contact tracers and healthcare workers by combating the spread of COVID-19 together.” “TraceTogether's functionality will be suspended after the epidemic subsides.” [1]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=sg.gov.tech.bluetrace https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=sg.gov.tech.bl... "Android" [2]: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/tracetogether/id1498276074 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/tracetogether/id1498276074 "iOS"
- r00fus 7y ago
  I would somewhat trust Apple with a properly privacy-enabled (ie, strongly anonymized) solution (it's part of their brand) I am not sure I would trust Google.
skybrian 7y ago
Maybe you don't want to cancel your wedding or close your business either, but the health department can tell you that you must. Consent is not everything when public health is on the line. It seems like single-issue privacy advocacy is going to get even less traction than before.
- vbezhenar 7y ago
  So let's monitor everyone just because some theoretical terrorists might blew up something. This is old talk.