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If you are going to require students/employees to use a tool like Zoom (and choosing it for lectures is definitely making it a requirement) then you are obligat

If you are going to require students/employees to use a tool like Zoom (and choosing it for lectures is definitely making it a requirement) then you are obligated to, at the very least, seek informed consent from students/staff as to what privacy they are giving up. And if someone doesn't consent (voluntarily), you have to seek alternatives and mitigations. If you're a Comp Sci or Engineering prof you really have an obligation to try harder. You have the capability to explain mitigation techniques (virtual machines, sandboxing, using temporary email addresses, VPNs). Longer term I think we will see a host of Zoom competitors, because really there is nothing special in the client. Hangouts in particular could easily eclipse it with some work. Also, I think the grid of faces approach is just awful. Many people have been working on VR meeting systems which have significant advantages for multiperson communication (i.e. discussion vs broadcast). Lecture/theatre VTC (which provides an aggregated feedback signal to the presenter) is completely unmet by Zoom. So once we're past the hump the field will broaden, and at that point the privacy requirements have to be enforced rigourously.

gowld 7y ago
> Longer term I think we will see a host of Zoom competitors, because really there is nothing special in the client. Hangouts in particular could easily eclipse it with some work. Then why hasn't it, despite far more work and funding than Zoom, for over a decade? This is a "I could have invented Facebook" comment. Things are harder than you suggest.
- angry_octet 7y ago
  Google notoriously loses interest in what isn't hip at the moment. I think they might notice this market segment. Also I've done 300+ participant A/V conferencing systems, it isn't the client part that is hard, its the authentication, directory and latency that becomes difficult, and google already has that pretty well sorted.
klyrs 7y ago
> Hangouts in particular could easily eclipse it with some work. Is this actually better from a privacy perspective? Sounds like abandoning the frying pan for the fire...
- angry_octet 7y ago
  There is some truth to that, but at least the clients are not so terrible (see e.g. https://medium.com/bugbountywriteup/zoom-zero-day-4-million-webcams-maybe-an-rce-just-get-them-to-visit-your-website-ac75c83f4ef5 https://medium.com/bugbountywriteup/zoom-zero-day-4-million-...). From a technical perspective I don't think anything groundbreaking is required, it just wasn't a market segment earning money before now, because why not just walk down the hall, or have a conference etc? Noone is saying a Zoom meeting can replace that, it is just a stop gap.
thoraway1010 7y ago
Where is this requirement to seek alternatives? Both in high school and college I used PLENTY of stuff that I didn't want to and was never provided "alternatives" if I didn't consent. Seriously, endpoint protection products centrally controlled with total system access control are not uncommon in these settings. You are claiming I can opt out of all of this if it invades my privacy? The school had a third party vendor that tracked every keycard access to every lock on campus - I'd def like to opt out of that!
- Talanes 7y ago
  There's a difference between the school allowing tracking your use of their equipment and the school requiring you to use tracking software on your own machine. Of course, if the schooling is voluntary; either private K-12 or any collegiate level, then you just have to play by their rules or go home. Someone could definitely bring the case against a state K-12 requiring Zoom use though, were they properly paranoid, motivated, and funded.
  - angry_octet 7y ago
    Privacy legislation in America has not kept up with technology. But if you're going to a public school you can at least take political action at the School Board level. https://ssd.eff.org/en/module/privacy-students https://ssd.eff.org/en/module/privacy-students
- eitally 7y ago
  When you were a minor in high school, yes. Presumably, in college you were 18+ and legally allowed to consent on your own. You are, of course, welcome to opt out, but there is -- as you suggest -- no requirement for a school or employer to provide an alternative.
  - angry_octet 7y ago
    It might not be a legal requirement, but it may be ethically wrong, and university staff who act unethically can face consequences. Student organizations are hopefully not totally powerless, though they are no doubt using Zoom for meetings too.

gowld 7y ago

> Longer term I think we will see a host of Zoom competitors, because really there is nothing special in the client. Hangouts in particular could easily eclipse it with some work. Then why hasn't it, despite far more work and funding than Zoom, for over a decade? This is a "I could have invented Facebook" comment. Things are harder than you suggest.

angry_octet 7y ago
Google notoriously loses interest in what isn't hip at the moment. I think they might notice this market segment. Also I've done 300+ participant A/V conferencing systems, it isn't the client part that is hard, its the authentication, directory and latency that becomes difficult, and google already has that pretty well sorted.

klyrs 7y ago

> Hangouts in particular could easily eclipse it with some work. Is this actually better from a privacy perspective? Sounds like abandoning the frying pan for the fire...

angry_octet 7y ago
There is some truth to that, but at least the clients are not so terrible (see e.g. https://medium.com/bugbountywriteup/zoom-zero-day-4-million-webcams-maybe-an-rce-just-get-them-to-visit-your-website-ac75c83f4ef5 https://medium.com/bugbountywriteup/zoom-zero-day-4-million-...). From a technical perspective I don't think anything groundbreaking is required, it just wasn't a market segment earning money before now, because why not just walk down the hall, or have a conference etc? Noone is saying a Zoom meeting can replace that, it is just a stop gap.

thoraway1010 7y ago

Where is this requirement to seek alternatives? Both in high school and college I used PLENTY of stuff that I didn't want to and was never provided "alternatives" if I didn't consent. Seriously, endpoint protection products centrally controlled with total system access control are not uncommon in these settings. You are claiming I can opt out of all of this if it invades my privacy? The school had a third party vendor that tracked every keycard access to every lock on campus - I'd def like to opt out of that!

Talanes 7y ago
There's a difference between the school allowing tracking your use of their equipment and the school requiring you to use tracking software on your own machine. Of course, if the schooling is voluntary; either private K-12 or any collegiate level, then you just have to play by their rules or go home. Someone could definitely bring the case against a state K-12 requiring Zoom use though, were they properly paranoid, motivated, and funded.
- angry_octet 7y ago
  Privacy legislation in America has not kept up with technology. But if you're going to a public school you can at least take political action at the School Board level. https://ssd.eff.org/en/module/privacy-students https://ssd.eff.org/en/module/privacy-students
eitally 7y ago
When you were a minor in high school, yes. Presumably, in college you were 18+ and legally allowed to consent on your own. You are, of course, welcome to opt out, but there is -- as you suggest -- no requirement for a school or employer to provide an alternative.
- angry_octet 7y ago
  It might not be a legal requirement, but it may be ethically wrong, and university staff who act unethically can face consequences. Student organizations are hopefully not totally powerless, though they are no doubt using Zoom for meetings too.