6 ms·

It's not really a status symbol. PMs tend to be more mobile, presenting in meetings and such, and need laptops. Devs and testers get much better desktops.

plinkplonk 16y ago
"It's not really a status symbol." A status symbol is, by definition, something only or mostly upper echelons of a hierarchy can get, with fig leaf justifications about why the folks on the lower rungs are "not worthy" of them. The surest way to make anything (a private office, a parking space, a laptop) a status symbol is to mandate that only people above a certain level in the hierarchy can get one.(Note that I am responding to a comment that states that laptops are only for managers and devs have to get "loaners". Other people at MS seem to disagree that this is the case) "Devs and testers get much better desktops." Good desktops aren't an excuse for not having good laptops. The association of laptops with presentations and meetings conveys a lot about MS's approach to development. No wonder the place is infested with multiple layers of redundant management. I wonder how MS Research fares? Do Peyton Jones and co go laptopless too?
- DaveMebs 16y ago
  Everything done at MSFT is based upon dev-test-pm triads where all members of the team have equal say in the product and decisions. This is true from the individual contributor level up to the VP level (where it starts to break down). Dev's report to dev leads, test to test leads, and PMs to PM leads. All PMs, including individual contributors, get laptops. They are the same level as developers, and more importantly, in a completely different hierarchy. I'm not going to lie and say devs don't want laptops - of course they do. Everyone wants a free laptop. But guess what? I'm a PM at MSFT, and you know what I want? A second desktop and better monitors. Are these a status symbols for devs? No. Resources are fairly assigned based on need, and everyone at the company realizes that. I should also point out that most senior devs do have laptops in my experience. It's the really new, junior guys that don't get them right away. There are communal resources if a dev really needs portability for a few days.
  - plinkplonk 16y ago
    "I'm a PM at MSFT, and you know what I want? A second desktop and better monitors." If you want them to do your job and you are not getting them, that just illustrates the point better. Economizing on hardware (and paper towels, heh!) is really dumb for a software/tech company. "I should also point out that most senior devs do have laptops in my experience. It's the really new, junior guys that don't get them right away." So, in other words a laptop is a status symbol. Junior devs rank lower in the hierarchy though they use the same tools and work on the same codebases as senior devs.
    - JanezStupar 16y ago
      So what you're saying is that where you work everybody has 2 desktops, 2 laptops and nobody would raise a brow if you wanted another? In my book what Microsoft does is waaaaay beyond "trying to save on toilet paper". The last place I worked having a monitor bigger than 19" was a status simbol. Excuse my patronizing - you are around/under 25 right? Because I have noticed that juniors tend to have this petty fascination with hardware that goes away with time (myself included).
      - plinkplonk 16y ago
        "what you're saying is that where you work everybody has 2 desktops, 2 laptops and nobody would raise a brow if you wanted another?" I work on a 3000 node super computing cluster doing heavy duty Machine Learning and signal processing and a lot of funky (and classified) hardware, and yes, no one would blink if I wanted two more machines (or a 100 more) - as a matter of fact we recently did a million$ + upgrade of the hardware on my say so, so yeah everyone on this project gets all the hardware they want ;-) Looking around I see (my personal system, doing mostly rendering and reports) 7 quad core machines, three 27 in monitors, 2 laptops, both Thinkpads. I (literally) only have to ask to get more machines. "Excuse my patronizing - you are around/under 25 right?" Patronizing is always inexcusable and rude, and snark appropriate on reddit isnot so valued on HN, but I don't mind at all. When you say things like that you just make a fool of yourself in public, go right ahead. :-) And as for my age, I am closer to 40 than 25, so perhaps you just need to try again? ;-) EDIT: (btw "paper towels" != "toilet paper". You missed the reference This which wrt the benefits cuts in 2004which included stopping towel supply(later rescinded) - I confess I am only guessing the towels were paper. ;-) from mini msft (I heard from a friend in MS, but mini is an online reference) "Should have just done the towels and called it a day!" - Lisa Brummel, May 18th 2006. You know, one moment of reflection: the circle is now complete. My second post to this blog was on July 6th, 2004. It was right after an impromptu employee meeting with Ballmer and Gates and as part of that, Mr. Ballmer justified the unfortunate recent benefit cuts, the main two points of ire being the towels and the ESPP revamp. Now, two years later, we're getting our towels back. Has it always just been about the towels? (Possible book title flashes through my mind.) It's not like we're sweaty work-out animals always in need of a shower and fresh towel. No. What riled us was the bone-headed way the towel cut-back was handled, explained, and justified. It truly made us wonder just who are these people in charge and just who do they think they are leading? The towels became the symbol of poor leadership. That and the office-supply hide-and-seek. Someone should send Ms. Brummel a golden towel award. I'd like my old ESPP back, too."
- Duff 16y ago
  Sounds like the dev types get 3-4 monitors and very beefy PCs, and work 40 hour weeks. Why would you want/need a laptop in that case? Multi-monitors with a laptop is asking for ergonomic-related health problems.

plinkplonk 16y ago

"It's not really a status symbol." A status symbol is, by definition, something only or mostly upper echelons of a hierarchy can get, with fig leaf justifications about why the folks on the lower rungs are "not worthy" of them. The surest way to make anything (a private office, a parking space, a laptop) a status symbol is to mandate that only people above a certain level in the hierarchy can get one.(Note that I am responding to a comment that states that laptops are only for managers and devs have to get "loaners". Other people at MS seem to disagree that this is the case) "Devs and testers get much better desktops." Good desktops aren't an excuse for not having good laptops. The association of laptops with presentations and meetings conveys a lot about MS's approach to development. No wonder the place is infested with multiple layers of redundant management. I wonder how MS Research fares? Do Peyton Jones and co go laptopless too?

DaveMebs 16y ago
Everything done at MSFT is based upon dev-test-pm triads where all members of the team have equal say in the product and decisions. This is true from the individual contributor level up to the VP level (where it starts to break down). Dev's report to dev leads, test to test leads, and PMs to PM leads. All PMs, including individual contributors, get laptops. They are the same level as developers, and more importantly, in a completely different hierarchy. I'm not going to lie and say devs don't want laptops - of course they do. Everyone wants a free laptop. But guess what? I'm a PM at MSFT, and you know what I want? A second desktop and better monitors. Are these a status symbols for devs? No. Resources are fairly assigned based on need, and everyone at the company realizes that. I should also point out that most senior devs do have laptops in my experience. It's the really new, junior guys that don't get them right away. There are communal resources if a dev really needs portability for a few days.
- plinkplonk 16y ago
  "I'm a PM at MSFT, and you know what I want? A second desktop and better monitors." If you want them to do your job and you are not getting them, that just illustrates the point better. Economizing on hardware (and paper towels, heh!) is really dumb for a software/tech company. "I should also point out that most senior devs do have laptops in my experience. It's the really new, junior guys that don't get them right away." So, in other words a laptop is a status symbol. Junior devs rank lower in the hierarchy though they use the same tools and work on the same codebases as senior devs.
  - JanezStupar 16y ago
    So what you're saying is that where you work everybody has 2 desktops, 2 laptops and nobody would raise a brow if you wanted another? In my book what Microsoft does is waaaaay beyond "trying to save on toilet paper". The last place I worked having a monitor bigger than 19" was a status simbol. Excuse my patronizing - you are around/under 25 right? Because I have noticed that juniors tend to have this petty fascination with hardware that goes away with time (myself included).
    - plinkplonk 16y ago
      "what you're saying is that where you work everybody has 2 desktops, 2 laptops and nobody would raise a brow if you wanted another?" I work on a 3000 node super computing cluster doing heavy duty Machine Learning and signal processing and a lot of funky (and classified) hardware, and yes, no one would blink if I wanted two more machines (or a 100 more) - as a matter of fact we recently did a million$ + upgrade of the hardware on my say so, so yeah everyone on this project gets all the hardware they want ;-) Looking around I see (my personal system, doing mostly rendering and reports) 7 quad core machines, three 27 in monitors, 2 laptops, both Thinkpads. I (literally) only have to ask to get more machines. "Excuse my patronizing - you are around/under 25 right?" Patronizing is always inexcusable and rude, and snark appropriate on reddit isnot so valued on HN, but I don't mind at all. When you say things like that you just make a fool of yourself in public, go right ahead. :-) And as for my age, I am closer to 40 than 25, so perhaps you just need to try again? ;-) EDIT: (btw "paper towels" != "toilet paper". You missed the reference This which wrt the benefits cuts in 2004which included stopping towel supply(later rescinded) - I confess I am only guessing the towels were paper. ;-) from mini msft (I heard from a friend in MS, but mini is an online reference) "Should have just done the towels and called it a day!" - Lisa Brummel, May 18th 2006. You know, one moment of reflection: the circle is now complete. My second post to this blog was on July 6th, 2004. It was right after an impromptu employee meeting with Ballmer and Gates and as part of that, Mr. Ballmer justified the unfortunate recent benefit cuts, the main two points of ire being the towels and the ESPP revamp. Now, two years later, we're getting our towels back. Has it always just been about the towels? (Possible book title flashes through my mind.) It's not like we're sweaty work-out animals always in need of a shower and fresh towel. No. What riled us was the bone-headed way the towel cut-back was handled, explained, and justified. It truly made us wonder just who are these people in charge and just who do they think they are leading? The towels became the symbol of poor leadership. That and the office-supply hide-and-seek. Someone should send Ms. Brummel a golden towel award. I'd like my old ESPP back, too."
Duff 16y ago
Sounds like the dev types get 3-4 monitors and very beefy PCs, and work 40 hour weeks. Why would you want/need a laptop in that case? Multi-monitors with a laptop is asking for ergonomic-related health problems.