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This is hysteria. I don’t have any sources but that’s apparently the name of the game in this thread, so here we are. Times are tough. It will get worse before

This is hysteria. I don’t have any sources but that’s apparently the name of the game in this thread, so here we are. Times are tough. It will get worse before it gets better. But it will get better. Pin this post and watch the situation unfold. If we really see the fall of capitalism, I will personally come visit you wherever you are, and we can ritually burn a portrait of Keynes together. To keep warm.

themagician 7y ago
I have no doubt things will get better. But it’s not just going to go back to the way things were. You aren’t going to see the fall of capitalism, but the kind of late stage, cut throat, everyone for themselves capitalism is falling apart. Before it’s even really begun we are already calling for a return to work because that’s all we know.
- krustyburger 7y ago
  In the first comment you said that capitalism was going to fail and likened that failure to the one of the Soviet system. Maybe that comment was a bit hyperbolic?
  - themagician 7y ago
    No, I think that’s pretty apt. I’m specifically talking about the US. Capitalism won’t fall, but the kind of capitalism we have in the US is literally falling apart at the seams. We know what the solution is to the problem, but it is not compatible with our system. We are fighting it every step of the way. So either the system changes or a lot of people die… which will force even more accelerated change.
    - bogomipz 7y ago
      >"We know what the solution is to the problem, but it is not compatible with our system." Could you elaborate on what that solution is? What comes after this "late stage" capitalism exactly? It's not clear to me.
      - themagician 7y ago
        The solution is to test people rigorously and restrict and track their movement. We know this. What comes after? I’m not sure. Guess we’ll find out.
- joaomacp 7y ago
  It's going to be a return to rampant crime, drug addiction, poverty, etc. There will be significantly more deaths from the cure.
- sk5t 7y ago
  People have short memories. If hoping for change is optimism, then you're too optimistic.
- refurb 7y ago
  But it’s not just going to go back to the way things were. People said the exact same thing in 2008. And it turned out things did go back to the way things were.
  - blackrock 7y ago
    Crony capitalism at play here. And Late Stage Capitalism. Things got really good for the rich and well connected. For everyone else, they got priced out. Now with this Infinite QE from the Fed, Jeff Bezos is probably going to be the world’s first Trillionaire. The Fed just bailed out all the corporations with their bad bonds that they used to buy back all their shares, so their CEOs could get million dollar payouts. And for everyone else, good luck paying for your house, with a 60 year mortgage. Remember, you are poor because you didn’t work hard enough in life. The rich are smarter than you, because they chose their parents wisely. Does nobody even question this future that we are setting for ourselves, and for our children?
yladiz 7y ago
If capitalism doesn’t fall during this can I pay you to burn the portrait anyway?
yingw787 7y ago
I respectfully disagree. Things get better or worse based on our decision-making skills and the physical state of the world, not because we "deserve" to get better or because it "naturally" happens. We have to put in the effort and hard work in order to attain greatness, it doesn't just come. For example, I made two Hacker News posts about the coronavirus before all this happened, and both times people rose to dismiss my concerns: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22111815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22111815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22453381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22453381 Now JHU CSSE is reporting 23,970 deaths and a continued exponential rise in confirmed cases with no peaking in sight. We're quarantining themselves on a state-by-state basis, NY w/ Cuomo is locking down hard while New Orleans was partying @ Mardi Gras. No restrictions on domestic interstate travel. No federal roadmap for the next three to six months. No communications with even our closest allies on travel bans. Just as surely as the sun rises, black swans can and do happen, and sometimes empires and peoples don't get up. Not ever. Carthage, Babylon, Jericho, Palmyra, Teotihuacan, and a hundred other once-great cities said we will overcome and persevere, and now they're dead and dead forever. We have absolutely got to stop thinking we're exceptional and we're different. We're where we are now because a lot of good men and women worked tirelessly to get us here, sometimes kicking and screaming. We'll get out of it if and only if we listen to those same men and women working tirelessly on our behalf. Otherwise we will join the dead in the scrap heap of history. Don't ever, ever assume it can't happen to you.
- maximente 7y ago
  several of those examples about once great entities (?) were destroyed in part if not wholly by foreign armies - so i'm not sure that rhetoric is (or at least those examples are) really appropriate here.
  - yingw787 7y ago
    Death is always an uncomfortable discussion topic, but I'd say it's one of our best teachers. To bring up one of my examples, Palmyra was once a wealthy Roman provincial capital in Asia Minor, separated from the Roman Empire by declaring the Palmyrene Empire during the Crisis of the Third Century, and henceforth destroyed by Aurelian. You can argue the Roman army would be a foreign army composed partly of barbarians unfamiliar to a longstanding part of the Roman Empire, and you can also argue it's a domestic army putting down an insurrection. Now take this news: https://www.newsweek.com/massachusetts-governor-says-hes-being-outbid-federal-government-coronavirus-supplies-despite-1493332 https://www.newsweek.com/massachusetts-governor-says-hes-bei... President Trump is outbidding state governors for medical equipment during this crisis, while telling them to purchase their own directly from the supplier. States don't issue currency and can't run a deficit, and federal treasuries are much more plentiful than state treasuries because of a greater lever to tax, so President Trump gets the medical supplies. President Trump can increase the amount of production by invoking the Defense Production Act, but has not yet done so; as far as I know private companies are increasing production due to increased demand (which has to be proven after people die and start panicking) and not out of a proactive government grant. Massachusetts is a state that votes mostly Democratic at the federal level. California and Washington state are mostly Democratic at the federal level too. Now, for the million-dollar question: given the federal government's response, would you say this behavior is indicative of a federal government that treats these states as domestic, or foreign, entities? I've read through maybe a third of the Federalist Papers, and the first ten or fifteen letters hammer home the importance of union in the face of enemies foreign and domestic. Tear away that fabric, and you have the Greek city-states or the Balkans on a continental scale.

themagician 7y ago

I have no doubt things will get better. But it’s not just going to go back to the way things were. You aren’t going to see the fall of capitalism, but the kind of late stage, cut throat, everyone for themselves capitalism is falling apart. Before it’s even really begun we are already calling for a return to work because that’s all we know.

krustyburger 7y ago
In the first comment you said that capitalism was going to fail and likened that failure to the one of the Soviet system. Maybe that comment was a bit hyperbolic?
- themagician 7y ago
  No, I think that’s pretty apt. I’m specifically talking about the US. Capitalism won’t fall, but the kind of capitalism we have in the US is literally falling apart at the seams. We know what the solution is to the problem, but it is not compatible with our system. We are fighting it every step of the way. So either the system changes or a lot of people die… which will force even more accelerated change.
  - bogomipz 7y ago
    >"We know what the solution is to the problem, but it is not compatible with our system." Could you elaborate on what that solution is? What comes after this "late stage" capitalism exactly? It's not clear to me.
    - themagician 7y ago
      The solution is to test people rigorously and restrict and track their movement. We know this. What comes after? I’m not sure. Guess we’ll find out.
joaomacp 7y ago
It's going to be a return to rampant crime, drug addiction, poverty, etc. There will be significantly more deaths from the cure.
sk5t 7y ago
People have short memories. If hoping for change is optimism, then you're too optimistic.
refurb 7y ago
But it’s not just going to go back to the way things were. People said the exact same thing in 2008. And it turned out things did go back to the way things were.
- blackrock 7y ago
  Crony capitalism at play here. And Late Stage Capitalism. Things got really good for the rich and well connected. For everyone else, they got priced out. Now with this Infinite QE from the Fed, Jeff Bezos is probably going to be the world’s first Trillionaire. The Fed just bailed out all the corporations with their bad bonds that they used to buy back all their shares, so their CEOs could get million dollar payouts. And for everyone else, good luck paying for your house, with a 60 year mortgage. Remember, you are poor because you didn’t work hard enough in life. The rich are smarter than you, because they chose their parents wisely. Does nobody even question this future that we are setting for ourselves, and for our children?

yladiz 7y ago

If capitalism doesn’t fall during this can I pay you to burn the portrait anyway?

yingw787 7y ago

I respectfully disagree. Things get better or worse based on our decision-making skills and the physical state of the world, not because we "deserve" to get better or because it "naturally" happens. We have to put in the effort and hard work in order to attain greatness, it doesn't just come. For example, I made two Hacker News posts about the coronavirus before all this happened, and both times people rose to dismiss my concerns: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22111815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22111815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22453381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22453381 Now JHU CSSE is reporting 23,970 deaths and a continued exponential rise in confirmed cases with no peaking in sight. We're quarantining themselves on a state-by-state basis, NY w/ Cuomo is locking down hard while New Orleans was partying @ Mardi Gras. No restrictions on domestic interstate travel. No federal roadmap for the next three to six months. No communications with even our closest allies on travel bans. Just as surely as the sun rises, black swans can and do happen, and sometimes empires and peoples don't get up. Not ever. Carthage, Babylon, Jericho, Palmyra, Teotihuacan, and a hundred other once-great cities said we will overcome and persevere, and now they're dead and dead forever. We have absolutely got to stop thinking we're exceptional and we're different. We're where we are now because a lot of good men and women worked tirelessly to get us here, sometimes kicking and screaming. We'll get out of it if and only if we listen to those same men and women working tirelessly on our behalf. Otherwise we will join the dead in the scrap heap of history. Don't ever, ever assume it can't happen to you.

maximente 7y ago
several of those examples about once great entities (?) were destroyed in part if not wholly by foreign armies - so i'm not sure that rhetoric is (or at least those examples are) really appropriate here.
- yingw787 7y ago
  Death is always an uncomfortable discussion topic, but I'd say it's one of our best teachers. To bring up one of my examples, Palmyra was once a wealthy Roman provincial capital in Asia Minor, separated from the Roman Empire by declaring the Palmyrene Empire during the Crisis of the Third Century, and henceforth destroyed by Aurelian. You can argue the Roman army would be a foreign army composed partly of barbarians unfamiliar to a longstanding part of the Roman Empire, and you can also argue it's a domestic army putting down an insurrection. Now take this news: https://www.newsweek.com/massachusetts-governor-says-hes-being-outbid-federal-government-coronavirus-supplies-despite-1493332 https://www.newsweek.com/massachusetts-governor-says-hes-bei... President Trump is outbidding state governors for medical equipment during this crisis, while telling them to purchase their own directly from the supplier. States don't issue currency and can't run a deficit, and federal treasuries are much more plentiful than state treasuries because of a greater lever to tax, so President Trump gets the medical supplies. President Trump can increase the amount of production by invoking the Defense Production Act, but has not yet done so; as far as I know private companies are increasing production due to increased demand (which has to be proven after people die and start panicking) and not out of a proactive government grant. Massachusetts is a state that votes mostly Democratic at the federal level. California and Washington state are mostly Democratic at the federal level too. Now, for the million-dollar question: given the federal government's response, would you say this behavior is indicative of a federal government that treats these states as domestic, or foreign, entities? I've read through maybe a third of the Federalist Papers, and the first ten or fifteen letters hammer home the importance of union in the face of enemies foreign and domestic. Tear away that fabric, and you have the Greek city-states or the Balkans on a continental scale.