6 ms·

Canadian living in the US here. It is amazing (and absolutely terrifying) as to how belligerent Americans are to any sense of being told what to do. A good %

by sanguy 7y ago

Canadian living in the US here. It is amazing (and absolutely terrifying) as to how belligerent Americans are to any sense of being told what to do. A good % of them will purposely do the opposite just to exercise their freedoms. So in a situation of lock-downs, shelter in places, and generally strong advice to socially distance you have: - Neighbor's continually inviting us to BBQ's and dinner parties - Bars are closed so people are having tailgate parties outside of the local liquor stores with friends - Nobody respecting 2m distancing at groceries, even with tape lines to indicate safe spacing - Assholes purposely coughing and as they do so muttering "corona" in public places treating it like a joke - Young people on tiktok and other social media doing things like spitting, licking, or coughing on others/foods. Unfortunately this is not selective in that those acting like idiots are not the only impacting themselves, but they are helping the spread and impacting others.

Hokusai 7y ago
> It is amazing (and absolutely terrifying) as to how belligerent Americans are to any sense of being told what to do. A good % of them will purposely do the opposite just to exercise their freedoms. "Small government" is part of many TV stations indoctrination. The idea that any government initiative, except for war, should not be taken seriously and should be defunded is hammered on the American public. So, there is no balance between what should be run for the good of the community and personal freedoms. > To be very honest it fully deserves what occurs as so many are poking this in the eye asking for her vengeance. Sadly many people are as much victims as executors. Many American citizens have learned to hate the common good and bring people to power with the same mindset. For me it is hard to think that people that never got a chance, that never got proper education, that is only following what other taught them is deserving of such suffering. I hope that the reality of this situation may help to break that cycle. I do not expect this overnight, but, it may come as a change in the long run.
smkellat 7y ago
What do you expect after three years of #Resistance, Russia-related conspiracies, the Mueller mess, and worse in this country? Frankly I am surprised that we have any shred of compliance anywhere at all. The state briefing here in Ohio today said we're expecting things to hit the multiples thousands per day in late April for diagnoses so this situation can still accelerate yet.
wwweston 7y ago
Some of this seems just human nature to me. Normalcy bias and reluctance to the social fallout of telling people "things are different" combined with that rebellious itch. But: in the states for a looong time it's seemed to me there's been a cultural spread of a privilege that could be roughly paraphrased as "my opinion & rights are as good as anyone's arguments or expert direction." I don't think this is just a cultural accident. There's some indication that phrases like "coastal elite" are deliberate fronts in a war to Other expertise, and reason to believe there are people who decided decades ago that affirming and spreading this stance was likely to increase their chances of having political power wielded towards their goals. Many Americans have long had the privilege of thinking this way if they want to, without many noticeably singular consequences to have to face. Some are going to try to hold on to this. Maybe some minority will even come through this without having been directly impacted and will continue to live comfortably inside that privilege. The difficult part is that there are many people who don't think this way who don't deserve the poke in the eye, but the behavior of others can bring it anyway.
nobleach 7y ago
I live near a bunch of "tough guy rancher" states, and that mentality is just absurd. I want to just scream at these folks sometimes, "the virus doesn't care how tough you are!!! If you infect your wife/parents/child and somebody dies, what do you have left to say? 'oh, well I'm a tough guy?". I recognize this is a strawman, but I watched one of these fine specimens sneeze all over a bunch of bags of tortilla chips at the grocery store yesterday. All I could say was... "I KNEW I should have stayed home".
ahelwer 7y ago
I'm going to level with you, also as a Canadian living in the US, this list of behaviors reads like something you'd come up with if you spent all day inside consuming local news. Lockdown seems to be working just fine in Seattle.
pdonis 7y ago
> it fully deserves what occurs "It" is not one person, "it" is a country of 330 million people. Many of them are not behaving in the ways you describe. I personally have not observed any such behaviors in my neighborhood or on the (rare) occasions over the past few weeks when I've had to go to the store (we stocked up early on to minimize the need to shop). Also, while we Americans do tend to distrust authorities and we like to exercise our freedoms, we also have (or at least some segment of us have) a strong sense of personal responsibility. That means, first, that you are perfectly justified in not going to neighborhood BBQs or tailgate parties and explaining that you don't think it's safe, telling people sharply in stores (after you've backed away to a safe distance) that you are keeping your distance for your and their safety, publicly telling assholes who treat it like a joke in public that it isn't a joke, publicly criticizing people who post obviously stupid things on social media, etc. You are responsible for your own safety and you don't have to accept what others are doing as normal or right. Second, personal responsibility means that all those people who are doing stupid things should suffer the consequences of their actions. If they feel bad because you spoke sharply to them to protect your own safety or to call out obviously stupid behaviors, tough. And if they get sick because they didn't take proper precautions, you don't owe them sympathy. Unfortunately, many Americans do seem to have lost sight of the whole personal responsibility thing in recent times. Perhaps this is an opportunity to re-emphasize it.
- sanguy 7y ago
  Thanks, edited as was too pointed with the "it" But I also do not agree fully. I have seen altercations in supermarket lines where someone oversteps the "tape separation" line and has been asked nicely "please step back" to get told off, or better yet spit on. Things are not right. This is not how civilized people interact with one another.
  - pdonis 7y ago
    > I have seen altercations in supermarket lines where someone oversteps the "tape separation" line and has been asked nicely "please step back" to get told off, or better yet spit on. At that point I'd be calling for the store manager, and if they didn't tell that person to leave, I'd be calling the cops. Particularly if someone was spit on; under current circumstances that amounts to reckless negligence. > This is not how civilized people interact with one another. And letting it happen without imposing consequences is not how civilized people maintain the standards and norms of civilization. The people you describe are uncivilized barbarians and should be treated with the appropriate contempt.
remarkEon 7y ago
American living in America here. It is amazing as to how easy it is to tell Canadians what to do (heh joking). You're mostly right, though I think people are starting to catch on where I live (West Coast). We don't have the same kind of, how to put this, "social unity" we had after WWII where basically every big company and most of the government was staffed by veterans of that war. So it is a little hard to get people to comply, and convince them that this kind of mobilization is necessary.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
a9h74j 7y ago
And which institutions had both agency and time and still failed to respond at Korea-like speed and method? - POTUS level administration - The congress, related staff, and all their institutional memory and connections to CDC, NIH etc. - CDC, NIH, Pentagon -- each of them - Major national media - 50 state governors and related disaster teams - Social media demonitizing and banning COVID topics/early-warning-analysis -- Etc for real-rime and later analysis Sadly, the same log-plot-slope might be baked in for four weeks to come -- about two weeks given incubation times, and another two weeks given the likelihood that the behaviors the immediate parent describes (along with others shopping and working) imply the doubling time will not have been increased much. At least four weeks --> at least a factor of 100 prospective increase, assuming a four-day doubling time and no saturation effects.
tonyedgecombe 7y ago
Joachim Klement has an interesting piece on this: https://klementoninvesting.substack.com/p/individualism-kills https://klementoninvesting.substack.com/p/individualism-kill...

by sanguy 7y ago

Hokusai 7y ago

> It is amazing (and absolutely terrifying) as to how belligerent Americans are to any sense of being told what to do. A good % of them will purposely do the opposite just to exercise their freedoms. "Small government" is part of many TV stations indoctrination. The idea that any government initiative, except for war, should not be taken seriously and should be defunded is hammered on the American public. So, there is no balance between what should be run for the good of the community and personal freedoms. > To be very honest it fully deserves what occurs as so many are poking this in the eye asking for her vengeance. Sadly many people are as much victims as executors. Many American citizens have learned to hate the common good and bring people to power with the same mindset. For me it is hard to think that people that never got a chance, that never got proper education, that is only following what other taught them is deserving of such suffering. I hope that the reality of this situation may help to break that cycle. I do not expect this overnight, but, it may come as a change in the long run.

smkellat 7y ago

What do you expect after three years of #Resistance, Russia-related conspiracies, the Mueller mess, and worse in this country? Frankly I am surprised that we have any shred of compliance anywhere at all. The state briefing here in Ohio today said we're expecting things to hit the multiples thousands per day in late April for diagnoses so this situation can still accelerate yet.

wwweston 7y ago

Some of this seems just human nature to me. Normalcy bias and reluctance to the social fallout of telling people "things are different" combined with that rebellious itch. But: in the states for a looong time it's seemed to me there's been a cultural spread of a privilege that could be roughly paraphrased as "my opinion & rights are as good as anyone's arguments or expert direction." I don't think this is just a cultural accident. There's some indication that phrases like "coastal elite" are deliberate fronts in a war to Other expertise, and reason to believe there are people who decided decades ago that affirming and spreading this stance was likely to increase their chances of having political power wielded towards their goals. Many Americans have long had the privilege of thinking this way if they want to, without many noticeably singular consequences to have to face. Some are going to try to hold on to this. Maybe some minority will even come through this without having been directly impacted and will continue to live comfortably inside that privilege. The difficult part is that there are many people who don't think this way who don't deserve the poke in the eye, but the behavior of others can bring it anyway.

nobleach 7y ago

I live near a bunch of "tough guy rancher" states, and that mentality is just absurd. I want to just scream at these folks sometimes, "the virus doesn't care how tough you are!!! If you infect your wife/parents/child and somebody dies, what do you have left to say? 'oh, well I'm a tough guy?". I recognize this is a strawman, but I watched one of these fine specimens sneeze all over a bunch of bags of tortilla chips at the grocery store yesterday. All I could say was... "I KNEW I should have stayed home".

ahelwer 7y ago

I'm going to level with you, also as a Canadian living in the US, this list of behaviors reads like something you'd come up with if you spent all day inside consuming local news. Lockdown seems to be working just fine in Seattle.

pdonis 7y ago

> it fully deserves what occurs "It" is not one person, "it" is a country of 330 million people. Many of them are not behaving in the ways you describe. I personally have not observed any such behaviors in my neighborhood or on the (rare) occasions over the past few weeks when I've had to go to the store (we stocked up early on to minimize the need to shop). Also, while we Americans do tend to distrust authorities and we like to exercise our freedoms, we also have (or at least some segment of us have) a strong sense of personal responsibility. That means, first, that you are perfectly justified in not going to neighborhood BBQs or tailgate parties and explaining that you don't think it's safe, telling people sharply in stores (after you've backed away to a safe distance) that you are keeping your distance for your and their safety, publicly telling assholes who treat it like a joke in public that it isn't a joke, publicly criticizing people who post obviously stupid things on social media, etc. You are responsible for your own safety and you don't have to accept what others are doing as normal or right. Second, personal responsibility means that all those people who are doing stupid things should suffer the consequences of their actions. If they feel bad because you spoke sharply to them to protect your own safety or to call out obviously stupid behaviors, tough. And if they get sick because they didn't take proper precautions, you don't owe them sympathy. Unfortunately, many Americans do seem to have lost sight of the whole personal responsibility thing in recent times. Perhaps this is an opportunity to re-emphasize it.

sanguy 7y ago
Thanks, edited as was too pointed with the "it" But I also do not agree fully. I have seen altercations in supermarket lines where someone oversteps the "tape separation" line and has been asked nicely "please step back" to get told off, or better yet spit on. Things are not right. This is not how civilized people interact with one another.
- pdonis 7y ago
  > I have seen altercations in supermarket lines where someone oversteps the "tape separation" line and has been asked nicely "please step back" to get told off, or better yet spit on. At that point I'd be calling for the store manager, and if they didn't tell that person to leave, I'd be calling the cops. Particularly if someone was spit on; under current circumstances that amounts to reckless negligence. > This is not how civilized people interact with one another. And letting it happen without imposing consequences is not how civilized people maintain the standards and norms of civilization. The people you describe are uncivilized barbarians and should be treated with the appropriate contempt.

remarkEon 7y ago

American living in America here. It is amazing as to how easy it is to tell Canadians what to do (heh joking). You're mostly right, though I think people are starting to catch on where I live (West Coast). We don't have the same kind of, how to put this, "social unity" we had after WWII where basically every big company and most of the government was staffed by veterans of that war. So it is a little hard to get people to comply, and convince them that this kind of mobilization is necessary.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

a9h74j 7y ago

And which institutions had both agency and time and still failed to respond at Korea-like speed and method? - POTUS level administration - The congress, related staff, and all their institutional memory and connections to CDC, NIH etc. - CDC, NIH, Pentagon -- each of them - Major national media - 50 state governors and related disaster teams - Social media demonitizing and banning COVID topics/early-warning-analysis -- Etc for real-rime and later analysis Sadly, the same log-plot-slope might be baked in for four weeks to come -- about two weeks given incubation times, and another two weeks given the likelihood that the behaviors the immediate parent describes (along with others shopping and working) imply the doubling time will not have been increased much. At least four weeks --> at least a factor of 100 prospective increase, assuming a four-day doubling time and no saturation effects.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago

Joachim Klement has an interesting piece on this: https://klementoninvesting.substack.com/p/individualism-kills https://klementoninvesting.substack.com/p/individualism-kill...