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Ask HN: My brother is the director of Alaska VA and asked for help for this app

50 points by samstave 7y ago

My Brother is Dr. Timothy Dean Ballard - Director of the Veterans Administration for the State of Alaska - Former commander of the 10th Medical Wing for the USAF and previous flight surgeon to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He has asked for insight and if an app can be made for the following regarding COVID-19. --- A smart watch app that can detect, count, and alert on the amount of time one touches their face and a buzzer/reminder for when doing so to minimize the activity. I pointed out the difficulties in efficacy due to the fact that most wear a watch on their non-dominant hand, sensor false-positives etc... But he stated, something is better than nothing. I do not have the skills to create this - and my network in this area is too thin. Can we please request some help from the HN community to crowd source from you guys to add input to prevent illness.... Please let me know. https://www.alaska.va.gov/about/leadership.asp https://www.alaska.va.gov/about/leadership.asp http://www.ww35.usafunithistory.com/PDF/10-19/10%20MEDICAL%20GP.pdf http://www.ww35.usafunithistory.com/PDF/10-19/10%20MEDICAL%2...

mtmail 7y ago
Can you also add the request to https://helpwithcovid.com/ https://helpwithcovid.com/ ? That seems to be the biggest list/forum for projects.
- samstave 7y ago
  Submitted.
- samstave 7y ago
  Attempting to make a project and create a login gives me: https://i.imgur.com/qypAY4j.png https://i.imgur.com/qypAY4j.png Let me try a diff browser...
dkhenry 7y ago
There is a group inside the VA that might be able to help with it. https://connectedcare.va.gov/ https://connectedcare.va.gov/ They have teams that are working on mobile app's and they may be open to quickly putting together something to try out. They have done similar things in the past. Also you can check out the VA developer portal. They right now are now focused on stand alone app's, but they have a community they may be able to reach out to https://developer.va.gov/ https://developer.va.gov/
whb07 7y ago
As a veteran myself, I’d much rather any sort of money went into something that isn’t the disease of the day. Kind of find it hard to believe out of all the things one could do to help veterans in Alaska, this is the one thing he wants to do.
- busymom0 7y ago
  I think the precautionary measures being taken will probably also help reduce flu cases going forward so this isn’t covid-19 only, can apply to other diseases too.
- burkaman 7y ago
  This is obviously not "the one thing he wants to do", it's an offhand idea he mentioned to his brother.
- smt88 7y ago
  You certainly have insight into the needs of veterans that I don't have, but... > something that isn’t the disease of the day I wouldn't look at it this way. First of all, it's going to be around for at least 18 more months. Many thousands of people will die. Second, veterans will be at higher risk than average Americans for various reasons (age, injuries, etc.) > Kind of find it hard to believe out of all the things one could do to help veterans in Alaska, this is the one thing he wants to do. Why do you assume it's the thing he wants to do? Should he ignore Covid-19 entirely because, in your opinion, other issues are more pressing? Can he only work on one issue at a time? I don't know a lot about the VA, and I do know that it's utterly failed to uphold its promise of taking care of vets, but it's likely that a lot of OP's brother's problems are caused by people higher up the chain than he is. Perhaps he's looking for innovative ways to help that won't be caught up in the failures at the top of the organization.
Jugurtha 7y ago
As someone who often gets asked by government officials on what can be done to improve the lives of X, Y, or Z and what applications can be built and how can we use artificial intelligence in a sector, my first answer is to get X, Y, and Z to the table and in the room then we'll talk. Alost anything other than that is a hammer looking for a nail, or an app looking for no user. The same used to happen to us building custom software for enterprise, where an executive starts telling us features to build for analysts/salespeople/marketing/engineering, and what the product should do. We asked access to users and were denied, and got paid for software nobody uses which is demoralizing. Our position now is: get the analysts/salespeople/marketing/engineering in the room and we'll build a product that drives value just fine. A lot of problems exist not for lack of a mobile app, and people either fail to see the problems in terms of systems, incentives, friction, trust, etc or there's pressure to show something is being done and an app is a good way to do just that. Activity over output. My opinion is: although the pressure may be strong on your brother to show something is being done, a good way to actually get things done is to meet the people your brother is trying to serve, and then serve them. Doing that may expose that many of them may have trouble actually acquiring soap, or are disabled and need someone to help them through this, or just need food and shelter.
- samstave 7y ago
  Sadly, I really agree with all you said - I told him something along similar lines - but I also told him I would field the question, and this being HN, I figured the best place o do so... He is adamant that we are at the very bottom of the beginning of the curve....... (I am inclined to know that he knows more than he lets on to me (see given creds about him, but I am also paranoid) so I wanted to see what could be done to help his request... he is also infuriatingly calm in any calamity, which is good for a field doc who helped many casualties in Iraq and beyong and in the literal pentagon Joint Chiefs office when the 'plane hit - but frustrating as heck when trying to discern true danger from a conversation with him) (((I was actually able to get more information from a Loral Space Sat Eng designer neighbor through our "blink if XX is true code about spy sats that I can from my literal brother)))
  - Jugurtha 7y ago
chris11 7y ago
I know BJ Fogg, Stanford behavior scientist, and creator of the Tiny Habits program is doing research into habits and COVID-19. Your brother could reach out to him about this. https://www.tinyhabits.com/handwashing https://www.tinyhabits.com/handwashing https://www.tinyhabits.com/stop-touching-your-face https://www.tinyhabits.com/stop-touching-your-face https://www.tinyhabits.com/expert-help https://www.tinyhabits.com/expert-help
- samstave 7y ago
  Can you put me in direct touch (social distancing understood - but you know what I mean ;-) )
  - chris11 7y ago
    I meant I know he's doing research, I don't personally know him. I'd try his public email, bj@bjfogg.com.
    - samstave 7y ago
      Done. Thanks.
boris-ning-usds 7y ago
Hi, I'm an engineer with VA as a part of USDS [https://usds.gov https://usds.gov]. As dkhenry stated in the comments, I sent a couple messages to the VA Lighthouse team along with the VA Office of Connected Care team to see they can help support this effort.
busymom0 7y ago
I think you should send this as feedback to Apple, specifically the Apple Watch team. Sometimes even emailing the top people at Apple might be able to help. You can also post this in the iOSprogramming subreddit. I think this should be possible using the sensors on the watch similar to how watches have the auto screen on when hand is raised.
- Austin_Conlon 7y ago
  I’ve found the Apple Watch team to be most responsive in Feedback Assistant, SwiftUI as well.
aparcel 7y ago
How about pitching it as an idea here?: https://datavant.com/pandemic-response-hackathon/ https://datavant.com/pandemic-response-hackathon/
matt_the_bass 7y ago
I’m curious how many vets in AK wear an Apple Watch. Though I get it that your brother wants to do something.
- jpster 7y ago
  Agree. Masks in the other hand...we’d be able to save more VA patients if we could somehow convince them (and all of us) to wear masks, and have enough masks to freely give to everyone.
  - matt_the_bass 7y ago
    Yeah, I get that “casual” face mask wearing won’t do a lot to protect the wearer from contracting the virus, but if everyone was wearing a masks, that would reduce transmission by know AND unknown carriers. I’m somewhat frustrated wearing masks for this reason is not mandated.
AnthonyOndre 7y ago
Neat idea and not a hard app to write for both WatchOS and iOS. Not something that can be done from a web page "app". Then there is this: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/apple-covid-19/id1504132184 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/apple-covid-19/id1504132184
onli 7y ago
A job of mine involved building prototypes for Wear OS. Based on that I'd guess that the idea is at least explorable. Smartwatches do have the needed sensors, I think. The watch is in a specific position when you touch your face. That should be detectable. There is an API to read them, https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/sensors/sensors_motion https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/sensors/sensors_m.... You can run apps in the foreground basically infinitely, as long as the Android was not hacked to death by the vendor (and every new Android update might end that in the name of battery efficiency). One thing to keep in mind is that not every watch has every sensor. Not sure which ones you would need here, but gyroscope and distance should be needed. https://www.mobvoi.com/ge/pages/ticwatchse https://www.mobvoi.com/ge/pages/ticwatchse has both and would be a cheap starting point. Then this is "just" about creating a model that detects when the watch is in the target position. That might be impossible if I'm wrong about what the sensors return, or complicated if you need to create a complex model where in space the watch is at all time, or it might be rather easy - fully depends on what the sensor data give you and how far Android already interprets them.
- tracker1 7y ago
  Well, what if I wear the watch on my non-dominant hand... and touch my face with my dominant one? Do I then need two watches?
  - onli 7y ago
    Well, of course.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
paraplegic 7y ago
OpenCV might be a good starting point ... they have facial recognition, and it should be possible to recognize a hand ...
youeseh 7y ago
I'd try to get answers to: - Who will this app be used by? - What are they doing now? - How is this app going to help? - Assuming that the magical technology to detect everything is already available, how exactly will this app do what it does? - Do they really care enough to take action with the use of this app?
jith 7y ago
My team and I built this. We tried to make it work on smartwatches, but necessary Hz, battery life, and UX limitations (ie: being in a "fitness session" to access necessary sensors) all proved to be an inadequate user experience. So we just created dedicated hardware and firmware. Check us out here: https://immutouch.com/ https://immutouch.com/ Here's TechCrunch's write up on us: https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/09/dont-immutouch/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/09/dont-immutouch/

50 points by samstave 7y ago

mtmail 7y ago

Can you also add the request to https://helpwithcovid.com/ https://helpwithcovid.com/ ? That seems to be the biggest list/forum for projects.

samstave 7y ago
Submitted.
samstave 7y ago
Attempting to make a project and create a login gives me: https://i.imgur.com/qypAY4j.png https://i.imgur.com/qypAY4j.png Let me try a diff browser...

dkhenry 7y ago

There is a group inside the VA that might be able to help with it. https://connectedcare.va.gov/ https://connectedcare.va.gov/ They have teams that are working on mobile app's and they may be open to quickly putting together something to try out. They have done similar things in the past. Also you can check out the VA developer portal. They right now are now focused on stand alone app's, but they have a community they may be able to reach out to https://developer.va.gov/ https://developer.va.gov/

whb07 7y ago

As a veteran myself, I’d much rather any sort of money went into something that isn’t the disease of the day. Kind of find it hard to believe out of all the things one could do to help veterans in Alaska, this is the one thing he wants to do.

busymom0 7y ago
I think the precautionary measures being taken will probably also help reduce flu cases going forward so this isn’t covid-19 only, can apply to other diseases too.
burkaman 7y ago
This is obviously not "the one thing he wants to do", it's an offhand idea he mentioned to his brother.
smt88 7y ago
You certainly have insight into the needs of veterans that I don't have, but... > something that isn’t the disease of the day I wouldn't look at it this way. First of all, it's going to be around for at least 18 more months. Many thousands of people will die. Second, veterans will be at higher risk than average Americans for various reasons (age, injuries, etc.) > Kind of find it hard to believe out of all the things one could do to help veterans in Alaska, this is the one thing he wants to do. Why do you assume it's the thing he wants to do? Should he ignore Covid-19 entirely because, in your opinion, other issues are more pressing? Can he only work on one issue at a time? I don't know a lot about the VA, and I do know that it's utterly failed to uphold its promise of taking care of vets, but it's likely that a lot of OP's brother's problems are caused by people higher up the chain than he is. Perhaps he's looking for innovative ways to help that won't be caught up in the failures at the top of the organization.

Jugurtha 7y ago

As someone who often gets asked by government officials on what can be done to improve the lives of X, Y, or Z and what applications can be built and how can we use artificial intelligence in a sector, my first answer is to get X, Y, and Z to the table and in the room then we'll talk. Alost anything other than that is a hammer looking for a nail, or an app looking for no user. The same used to happen to us building custom software for enterprise, where an executive starts telling us features to build for analysts/salespeople/marketing/engineering, and what the product should do. We asked access to users and were denied, and got paid for software nobody uses which is demoralizing. Our position now is: get the analysts/salespeople/marketing/engineering in the room and we'll build a product that drives value just fine. A lot of problems exist not for lack of a mobile app, and people either fail to see the problems in terms of systems, incentives, friction, trust, etc or there's pressure to show something is being done and an app is a good way to do just that. Activity over output. My opinion is: although the pressure may be strong on your brother to show something is being done, a good way to actually get things done is to meet the people your brother is trying to serve, and then serve them. Doing that may expose that many of them may have trouble actually acquiring soap, or are disabled and need someone to help them through this, or just need food and shelter.

samstave 7y ago
Sadly, I really agree with all you said - I told him something along similar lines - but I also told him I would field the question, and this being HN, I figured the best place o do so... He is adamant that we are at the very bottom of the beginning of the curve....... (I am inclined to know that he knows more than he lets on to me (see given creds about him, but I am also paranoid) so I wanted to see what could be done to help his request... he is also infuriatingly calm in any calamity, which is good for a field doc who helped many casualties in Iraq and beyong and in the literal pentagon Joint Chiefs office when the 'plane hit - but frustrating as heck when trying to discern true danger from a conversation with him) (((I was actually able to get more information from a Loral Space Sat Eng designer neighbor through our "blink if XX is true code about spy sats that I can from my literal brother)))
- Jugurtha 7y ago

chris11 7y ago

I know BJ Fogg, Stanford behavior scientist, and creator of the Tiny Habits program is doing research into habits and COVID-19. Your brother could reach out to him about this. https://www.tinyhabits.com/handwashing https://www.tinyhabits.com/handwashing https://www.tinyhabits.com/stop-touching-your-face https://www.tinyhabits.com/stop-touching-your-face https://www.tinyhabits.com/expert-help https://www.tinyhabits.com/expert-help

samstave 7y ago
Can you put me in direct touch (social distancing understood - but you know what I mean ;-) )
- chris11 7y ago
  I meant I know he's doing research, I don't personally know him. I'd try his public email, bj@bjfogg.com.
  - samstave 7y ago
    Done. Thanks.

boris-ning-usds 7y ago

Hi, I'm an engineer with VA as a part of USDS [https://usds.gov https://usds.gov]. As dkhenry stated in the comments, I sent a couple messages to the VA Lighthouse team along with the VA Office of Connected Care team to see they can help support this effort.

busymom0 7y ago

I think you should send this as feedback to Apple, specifically the Apple Watch team. Sometimes even emailing the top people at Apple might be able to help. You can also post this in the iOSprogramming subreddit. I think this should be possible using the sensors on the watch similar to how watches have the auto screen on when hand is raised.

Austin_Conlon 7y ago
I’ve found the Apple Watch team to be most responsive in Feedback Assistant, SwiftUI as well.

aparcel 7y ago

How about pitching it as an idea here?: https://datavant.com/pandemic-response-hackathon/ https://datavant.com/pandemic-response-hackathon/

matt_the_bass 7y ago

I’m curious how many vets in AK wear an Apple Watch. Though I get it that your brother wants to do something.

jpster 7y ago
Agree. Masks in the other hand...we’d be able to save more VA patients if we could somehow convince them (and all of us) to wear masks, and have enough masks to freely give to everyone.
- matt_the_bass 7y ago
  Yeah, I get that “casual” face mask wearing won’t do a lot to protect the wearer from contracting the virus, but if everyone was wearing a masks, that would reduce transmission by know AND unknown carriers. I’m somewhat frustrated wearing masks for this reason is not mandated.

AnthonyOndre 7y ago

Neat idea and not a hard app to write for both WatchOS and iOS. Not something that can be done from a web page "app". Then there is this: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/apple-covid-19/id1504132184 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/apple-covid-19/id1504132184

onli 7y ago

A job of mine involved building prototypes for Wear OS. Based on that I'd guess that the idea is at least explorable. Smartwatches do have the needed sensors, I think. The watch is in a specific position when you touch your face. That should be detectable. There is an API to read them, https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/sensors/sensors_motion https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/sensors/sensors_m.... You can run apps in the foreground basically infinitely, as long as the Android was not hacked to death by the vendor (and every new Android update might end that in the name of battery efficiency). One thing to keep in mind is that not every watch has every sensor. Not sure which ones you would need here, but gyroscope and distance should be needed. https://www.mobvoi.com/ge/pages/ticwatchse https://www.mobvoi.com/ge/pages/ticwatchse has both and would be a cheap starting point. Then this is "just" about creating a model that detects when the watch is in the target position. That might be impossible if I'm wrong about what the sensors return, or complicated if you need to create a complex model where in space the watch is at all time, or it might be rather easy - fully depends on what the sensor data give you and how far Android already interprets them.

tracker1 7y ago
Well, what if I wear the watch on my non-dominant hand... and touch my face with my dominant one? Do I then need two watches?
- onli 7y ago
  Well, of course.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

paraplegic 7y ago

OpenCV might be a good starting point ... they have facial recognition, and it should be possible to recognize a hand ...

youeseh 7y ago

I'd try to get answers to: - Who will this app be used by? - What are they doing now? - How is this app going to help? - Assuming that the magical technology to detect everything is already available, how exactly will this app do what it does? - Do they really care enough to take action with the use of this app?

jith 7y ago

My team and I built this. We tried to make it work on smartwatches, but necessary Hz, battery life, and UX limitations (ie: being in a "fitness session" to access necessary sensors) all proved to be an inadequate user experience. So we just created dedicated hardware and firmware. Check us out here: https://immutouch.com/ https://immutouch.com/ Here's TechCrunch's write up on us: https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/09/dont-immutouch/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/09/dont-immutouch/