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The origin of the virus. The mainstream media assumes the virus was created in a natural process of mutation and jumping species, while there's this little pape

The origin of the virus. The mainstream media assumes the virus was created in a natural process of mutation and jumping species, while there's this little paper [1] in Nature Medicine from 2015 where authors (virologists) confirm that they created a novel, human-transmisible coronavirus, based on a new virus they discovered among bats. Some of the authors of the paper are from Key Laboratory of Special Pathogens and Biosafety at the Wuhan Institute of Virology... [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985 https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985

mancerayder 7y ago
"This was created in a lab" has been the whisper of conspiracy-theorists. How likely is it? And a vial broke and it got released like in a Marvel comic?
- burntoutfire 7y ago
  Coronaviruses are actually created in labs as part of virology research (see my original link). It just seems that, in light of links that people posted, it did not escape/was released from the Wuhan lab - the strain that created the pandemic originated via natural processes.
  - tropo 7y ago
    Nah, see my comment above. Those links only tell us that we did not find evidence of the use modern gene-editing technology in the virus. It's misdirection with a straw man. The lab was breeding viruses the old-fashioned way long before modern gene-editing technology was invented. Bat coronaviruses would be mixed with other viruses and repeatedly passed through human cells. That leaves no evidence in the genome. It looks just like natural selection. The virus labs in China have had several other dangerous accidents that let viruses get out. Those previous accidents were gotten under control. With this one, we weren't so lucky. I think the lesson is clear: don't screw around making deadly viruses when your biohazard containment is substandard. Maybe just don't attempt it under any conditions.
    - mancerayder 7y ago
      There's a lot of supposition here. If this extraordinary claim is true, why isn't it screaming at the top of headlines?
      - tropo 7y ago
        Lots of reasons: There is a difference between "seems obviously correct" and "proven well enough to avoid a lawsuit". China exerts control over American media companies. Ones that don't play ball get banned in China. Remember that these companies are usually involved in many businesses, including the sale of movies to China's large population. Everybody is afraid to upset China. Even the publisher of Nature has ditched about 1000 articles that were upsetting to the Chinese government. Much of the US media is strongly in opposition to the US president. (They even stopped airing his virus updates, despite good ratings, because it was making him look good.) There is no desire to spread any news that could support his opposition to China.
- throwaway995 7y ago
  Okay, I'll bite: 1. The Chinese initially tried cover up and conceal reports new of the virus. E.g., the police intimidation of Dr. Li Wenliang before he succumb to the virus. 2. Wuhan, where the virus was first reported, is coincidentally China's best and only BSL-4 virus research lab, specifically focused on SARS. COVID is a close relation to SARS. 3. Chinese were caught doing unethical and dangerous DNS editing on human embryos. China later sent this "rouge" scientist to prison after a raucous global outcry. 4. Its been reported some Chinese researchers sell laboratory animals to street vendors after they have finished experimenting on them. All this said, I don't think China deliberately released released virus. More likely, this will turn out to be China's Chernobyl. Plain and simple greedy incompetent people. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/world/asia/china-coronavirus-doctor-death.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/world/asia/china-coronavi... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-7922379/Chinas-lab-studying-SARS-Ebola-Wuhan-outbreaks-center.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-7922379/Chinas-la... https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab-2020-02-22 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-... https://www.genengnews.com/insights/guilty-as-charged/ https://www.genengnews.com/insights/guilty-as-charged/
Leary 7y ago
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9
throwaway963577 7y ago
SARS-CoV2 shows no signs of genetic manipulation. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 The absence of a confirmed source does not put disproven conspiracy theories about its origin on the same footing as actual science.
- tropo 7y ago
  That article is misdirection. It says that we have not been able to find anything in the genome that proves modern gene editing technology was used. Well, so what? People aren't generally making that claim. The only thing disproven is a straw man. Nothing in the article rules out the possibility of a lab creating the virus via conventional breeding, by passing the virus through human cells and/or by infecting cells simultaneously with human viruses. Nothing in the article rules out the possibility of a lab accident; indeed there have been several lab accidents in China that released dangerous viruses. Look at this research: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18077725 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18077725 It is 2008 research from the lab in Wuhan. They created a virus by combining SARS-CoV with HIV, targeting the human ACE2 molecule as receptor. These features match those of our current pandemic. (India reported the HIV link, and the use of ACE2 is widely known) We shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility. Note also that China is actively trying to point people away from this line of inquiry. We should resist that effort. It's worth remembering that the very term "conspiracy theory" was first used to deflect attention from an actual conspiracy. It was a very successful psy-op, and it lives on to this day.
  - throwaway963577 7y ago
    I spent 5 years doing QA on synthetic oligos/genes used by just about everyone in synthetic biology. In my experience, edits are easy to detect if you know where to look--methylation patterns, unusually large numbers of start codons, and relatively few areas of high GC content. But I'm also a Chinese agent, so take that with a grain of salt.
    - tropo 7y ago
nitwit005 7y ago
These days, if a plane crashes, a well known politician or celebrity dies, or a disease appears, or anything else dramatic, people will claim it was due to a conspiracy. Typically there even be several mutually contradictory conspiracy theories. We fully expected an outbreak like this to happen eventually, and yet somehow having the expected result occur has spawned accusations of it being an American or Chinese plot.

mancerayder 7y ago

"This was created in a lab" has been the whisper of conspiracy-theorists. How likely is it? And a vial broke and it got released like in a Marvel comic?

burntoutfire 7y ago
Coronaviruses are actually created in labs as part of virology research (see my original link). It just seems that, in light of links that people posted, it did not escape/was released from the Wuhan lab - the strain that created the pandemic originated via natural processes.
- tropo 7y ago
  Nah, see my comment above. Those links only tell us that we did not find evidence of the use modern gene-editing technology in the virus. It's misdirection with a straw man. The lab was breeding viruses the old-fashioned way long before modern gene-editing technology was invented. Bat coronaviruses would be mixed with other viruses and repeatedly passed through human cells. That leaves no evidence in the genome. It looks just like natural selection. The virus labs in China have had several other dangerous accidents that let viruses get out. Those previous accidents were gotten under control. With this one, we weren't so lucky. I think the lesson is clear: don't screw around making deadly viruses when your biohazard containment is substandard. Maybe just don't attempt it under any conditions.
  - mancerayder 7y ago
    There's a lot of supposition here. If this extraordinary claim is true, why isn't it screaming at the top of headlines?
    - tropo 7y ago
      Lots of reasons: There is a difference between "seems obviously correct" and "proven well enough to avoid a lawsuit". China exerts control over American media companies. Ones that don't play ball get banned in China. Remember that these companies are usually involved in many businesses, including the sale of movies to China's large population. Everybody is afraid to upset China. Even the publisher of Nature has ditched about 1000 articles that were upsetting to the Chinese government. Much of the US media is strongly in opposition to the US president. (They even stopped airing his virus updates, despite good ratings, because it was making him look good.) There is no desire to spread any news that could support his opposition to China.
throwaway995 7y ago
Okay, I'll bite: 1. The Chinese initially tried cover up and conceal reports new of the virus. E.g., the police intimidation of Dr. Li Wenliang before he succumb to the virus. 2. Wuhan, where the virus was first reported, is coincidentally China's best and only BSL-4 virus research lab, specifically focused on SARS. COVID is a close relation to SARS. 3. Chinese were caught doing unethical and dangerous DNS editing on human embryos. China later sent this "rouge" scientist to prison after a raucous global outcry. 4. Its been reported some Chinese researchers sell laboratory animals to street vendors after they have finished experimenting on them. All this said, I don't think China deliberately released released virus. More likely, this will turn out to be China's Chernobyl. Plain and simple greedy incompetent people. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/world/asia/china-coronavirus-doctor-death.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/world/asia/china-coronavi... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-7922379/Chinas-lab-studying-SARS-Ebola-Wuhan-outbreaks-center.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-7922379/Chinas-la... https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab-2020-02-22 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-... https://www.genengnews.com/insights/guilty-as-charged/ https://www.genengnews.com/insights/guilty-as-charged/

Leary 7y ago

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

throwaway963577 7y ago

SARS-CoV2 shows no signs of genetic manipulation. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 The absence of a confirmed source does not put disproven conspiracy theories about its origin on the same footing as actual science.

tropo 7y ago
That article is misdirection. It says that we have not been able to find anything in the genome that proves modern gene editing technology was used. Well, so what? People aren't generally making that claim. The only thing disproven is a straw man. Nothing in the article rules out the possibility of a lab creating the virus via conventional breeding, by passing the virus through human cells and/or by infecting cells simultaneously with human viruses. Nothing in the article rules out the possibility of a lab accident; indeed there have been several lab accidents in China that released dangerous viruses. Look at this research: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18077725 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18077725 It is 2008 research from the lab in Wuhan. They created a virus by combining SARS-CoV with HIV, targeting the human ACE2 molecule as receptor. These features match those of our current pandemic. (India reported the HIV link, and the use of ACE2 is widely known) We shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility. Note also that China is actively trying to point people away from this line of inquiry. We should resist that effort. It's worth remembering that the very term "conspiracy theory" was first used to deflect attention from an actual conspiracy. It was a very successful psy-op, and it lives on to this day.
- throwaway963577 7y ago
  I spent 5 years doing QA on synthetic oligos/genes used by just about everyone in synthetic biology. In my experience, edits are easy to detect if you know where to look--methylation patterns, unusually large numbers of start codons, and relatively few areas of high GC content. But I'm also a Chinese agent, so take that with a grain of salt.
  - tropo 7y ago

nitwit005 7y ago

These days, if a plane crashes, a well known politician or celebrity dies, or a disease appears, or anything else dramatic, people will claim it was due to a conspiracy. Typically there even be several mutually contradictory conspiracy theories. We fully expected an outbreak like this to happen eventually, and yet somehow having the expected result occur has spawned accusations of it being an American or Chinese plot.