3 ms·

The APL section seems a little off. I downloaded the latest Dyalog version and the RIDE IDE and it was all very simple to use. Despite having zero APL experienc

The APL section seems a little off. I downloaded the latest Dyalog version and the RIDE IDE and it was all very simple to use. Despite having zero APL experience I wrote a pretty nifty program to simulate something in my domain in like 3 lines of code. The keyboard thing is a non-issue as the IDE let's you enter symbols and you quickly start to memorize that you can enter command-key r to enter rho and so forth. I've used the ASCII J before and find the APL glyphs help me learn what's going on better. It's right that it isn't a popular language, but that is sad. Dyalog has a lot of tools too from web server, database libraries, R & Python Bridges, GUI...and so forth.

mlochbaum 7y ago
I think it's fair to say that font issues were a significant reason for its decline in the late 80s and 90s (well before good unicode support). Other major factors were spreadsheets, which did many of the things APL was best at with an intuitive graphical interface, and OOP. APL didn't have OOP, so it was for dinosaurs. Structured programming could have had the same effect—mainstream APLs picked up ifs and while loops 10-20 years later than the rest of the world—but I think the usability gap between APL and anything else for arrays was just too large at the time for that to hurt APL too much.
- mlochbaum 7y ago
  The article is wrong about mixing strings and numbers though. The requirement for homogeneous data, and the use of boxes, is a feature of the SHARP APL lineage, which includes J (although these languages could allow mixed arrays if they wanted to). But the APL2 and NARS families simply allow anything as an element of an array. These are much more popular, to the point that every recent APL I'm aware of uses this style of array. Possibly a reason why J wasn't very successful; probably not a reason why APL usage disappeared. See also https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Array_model https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Array_model.
- 7thaccount 7y ago
  Thanks Marshall. I'll yield to you in anything APL as I'm a total noob. For those that don't recognize his username, I think he works for Dyalog in APL implementation. Is that right?
  - mlochbaum 7y ago
    That's right.
- WorldMaker 7y ago
  It's an interesting wonder if now that Unicode is much more ubiquitous, and people grow used to (and fond of) complex IMEs such as "emoji keyboards" and intricate ligatures of digraphs and trigraphs (fonts like Fira Code, Cascadia Code), if there will be an interesting APL resurgence or perhaps a modern Unicode "native" successor.
empath75 7y ago
I feel like APL would almost be better as a handwritten language.
- 7thaccount 7y ago
  So it was originally designed by a Harvard Math professor (Kenneth Iverson) as just that. A new mathematical notation to write down. He didn't get tenure (although later got the Turing award for some of that work) so he went to IBM and they actually implemented it. Aaron Hsu has done some blog posts on how he sometimes code using a nice calligraphic pen and paper with APL. https://www.sacrideo.us/paper-is-dead-long-live-paper-programming/ https://www.sacrideo.us/paper-is-dead-long-live-paper-progra...

mlochbaum 7y ago

I think it's fair to say that font issues were a significant reason for its decline in the late 80s and 90s (well before good unicode support). Other major factors were spreadsheets, which did many of the things APL was best at with an intuitive graphical interface, and OOP. APL didn't have OOP, so it was for dinosaurs. Structured programming could have had the same effect—mainstream APLs picked up ifs and while loops 10-20 years later than the rest of the world—but I think the usability gap between APL and anything else for arrays was just too large at the time for that to hurt APL too much.

mlochbaum 7y ago
The article is wrong about mixing strings and numbers though. The requirement for homogeneous data, and the use of boxes, is a feature of the SHARP APL lineage, which includes J (although these languages could allow mixed arrays if they wanted to). But the APL2 and NARS families simply allow anything as an element of an array. These are much more popular, to the point that every recent APL I'm aware of uses this style of array. Possibly a reason why J wasn't very successful; probably not a reason why APL usage disappeared. See also https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Array_model https://aplwiki.com/wiki/Array_model.
7thaccount 7y ago
Thanks Marshall. I'll yield to you in anything APL as I'm a total noob. For those that don't recognize his username, I think he works for Dyalog in APL implementation. Is that right?
- mlochbaum 7y ago
  That's right.
WorldMaker 7y ago
It's an interesting wonder if now that Unicode is much more ubiquitous, and people grow used to (and fond of) complex IMEs such as "emoji keyboards" and intricate ligatures of digraphs and trigraphs (fonts like Fira Code, Cascadia Code), if there will be an interesting APL resurgence or perhaps a modern Unicode "native" successor.

empath75 7y ago

I feel like APL would almost be better as a handwritten language.

7thaccount 7y ago
So it was originally designed by a Harvard Math professor (Kenneth Iverson) as just that. A new mathematical notation to write down. He didn't get tenure (although later got the Turing award for some of that work) so he went to IBM and they actually implemented it. Aaron Hsu has done some blog posts on how he sometimes code using a nice calligraphic pen and paper with APL. https://www.sacrideo.us/paper-is-dead-long-live-paper-programming/ https://www.sacrideo.us/paper-is-dead-long-live-paper-progra...