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According to your take, you can't use the term "devil's advocate" in this context either -- because it only makes sense in the context of the Catholic church. M

According to your take, you can't use the term "devil's advocate" in this context either -- because it only makes sense in the context of the Catholic church. Metaphors are meant to be used out of context. When I say "I'm in pole position," for example, I don't actually have to be a competitor in an automobile race.

the_af 7y ago
Um, "devil's advocate"? I didn't say anything about that. But let's roll with it: "devil's advocate" is a phrase appropriate for the situation described in the original post ("let me hear your suggestion, I'll try to find any flaws or objections to it for the sake of debate"), so it has the correct context, whereas "I'll play the straight man to your suggestion" makes little sense outside comedy, and if the offended person had understood it, they could even have thought it meant "you're the person saying funny crazy things, I'm the sensible person hearing them". > Metaphors are meant to be used out of context. No. Let me reiterate: every form of human communication needs context in order to be effective. Metaphors must be deployed in context, otherwise they risk being misunderstood, as it happened in this case. The context of a metaphor is NOT its literal interpretation. If you think that's what I'm saying, I apologize: that's not what I meant at all. The context is a situation where the metaphor makes sense or applies. A situation where there's a contest and a "best" position is the right context for saying "I'm in pole position", though it doesn't have to be an actual race; a situation where this doesn't apply is not the right context.
- viklove 7y ago
  "Straight man" makes just as much sense as "devil's advocate," neither of them apply to a workplace situation. The former applies to comedy performances, and the latter applies to biblical characters. Neither can be used in a day-to-day setting according to you. You're drawing a distinction where one can't be made, probably because your ego is preventing you from admitting you're wrong. Have a nice day, I guess. Oh wait, it's night time, so I shouldn't use that metaphor -- goodbye.
  - the_af 7y ago
    > "Straight man" makes just as much sense as "devil's advocate," I disagree. It's easy to see why "straight man" doesn't make sense in this situation if you try to explain to me how it makes sense. I can't. I can explain how "devil's advocate" makes sense though: it means arguing the opposition to an idea not because you necessarily disagree, but because you want to explore the negatives/other possibilities. What does "straight man" mean to you? > The former applies to comedy performances Correct. > the latter applies to biblical characters. Incorrect. If you think this, you're confusing a metaphor's literal interpretation with its meaning. "Have a nice day" isn't a metaphor, at this point it seems you're being purposefully obtuse. Have a nice day!
    - viklove 7y ago
      > straight man: the person in a comedy duo who speaks lines which give a comedian the opportunity to make jokes All you have to do is change "comedy duo" to "coworker pair" and "jokes" to "explanation of architecture." > devils advocate: the popular title of the person appointed by the Roman Catholic Church to challenge a proposed beatification or canonization, or the verification of a miracle All you have to do is change "person appointed by the Roman Catholic Church" to "coworker" and "challenge a proposed beatification or canonization" to "challenge another person's ideas." > purposefully obtuse Is that worse than being unintentionally obtuse, like you're doing? By the way, have you tried just looking up the word "metaphor?" > a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable. Do you see the words at the end? "Not literally applicable."
      - the_af 7y ago
        > All you have to do is change "comedy duo" to "coworker pair" and "jokes" to "explanation of architecture." But that doesn't work, because it requires changing the meaning/imagery of the metaphor beyond what regular people would recognize. You know, what actually happened in the situation of the original post. Yes, I can change "straight man" to "spaceship" and "jokes" to "launch into space", but it'd be almost as nonsensical. > By the way, have you tried just looking up the word "metaphor?" Yes. Note you misunderstand the definition you quoted. Let me say it once more, then we're done: the CONTEXT of a metaphor is not ITS LITERAL MEANING, so quit yapping about literalness. Context matters. "Straight man" doesn't have the required context, "devil's advocate" does. I don't expect you to acknowledge what I'm saying. At this point I must assume your ego won't let you budge an inch. Have a nice day! (which is not a metaphor, by the way).

the_af 7y ago

Um, "devil's advocate"? I didn't say anything about that. But let's roll with it: "devil's advocate" is a phrase appropriate for the situation described in the original post ("let me hear your suggestion, I'll try to find any flaws or objections to it for the sake of debate"), so it has the correct context, whereas "I'll play the straight man to your suggestion" makes little sense outside comedy, and if the offended person had understood it, they could even have thought it meant "you're the person saying funny crazy things, I'm the sensible person hearing them". > Metaphors are meant to be used out of context. No. Let me reiterate: every form of human communication needs context in order to be effective. Metaphors must be deployed in context, otherwise they risk being misunderstood, as it happened in this case. The context of a metaphor is NOT its literal interpretation. If you think that's what I'm saying, I apologize: that's not what I meant at all. The context is a situation where the metaphor makes sense or applies. A situation where there's a contest and a "best" position is the right context for saying "I'm in pole position", though it doesn't have to be an actual race; a situation where this doesn't apply is not the right context.

viklove 7y ago
"Straight man" makes just as much sense as "devil's advocate," neither of them apply to a workplace situation. The former applies to comedy performances, and the latter applies to biblical characters. Neither can be used in a day-to-day setting according to you. You're drawing a distinction where one can't be made, probably because your ego is preventing you from admitting you're wrong. Have a nice day, I guess. Oh wait, it's night time, so I shouldn't use that metaphor -- goodbye.
- the_af 7y ago
  > "Straight man" makes just as much sense as "devil's advocate," I disagree. It's easy to see why "straight man" doesn't make sense in this situation if you try to explain to me how it makes sense. I can't. I can explain how "devil's advocate" makes sense though: it means arguing the opposition to an idea not because you necessarily disagree, but because you want to explore the negatives/other possibilities. What does "straight man" mean to you? > The former applies to comedy performances Correct. > the latter applies to biblical characters. Incorrect. If you think this, you're confusing a metaphor's literal interpretation with its meaning. "Have a nice day" isn't a metaphor, at this point it seems you're being purposefully obtuse. Have a nice day!
  - viklove 7y ago
    > straight man: the person in a comedy duo who speaks lines which give a comedian the opportunity to make jokes All you have to do is change "comedy duo" to "coworker pair" and "jokes" to "explanation of architecture." > devils advocate: the popular title of the person appointed by the Roman Catholic Church to challenge a proposed beatification or canonization, or the verification of a miracle All you have to do is change "person appointed by the Roman Catholic Church" to "coworker" and "challenge a proposed beatification or canonization" to "challenge another person's ideas." > purposefully obtuse Is that worse than being unintentionally obtuse, like you're doing? By the way, have you tried just looking up the word "metaphor?" > a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable. Do you see the words at the end? "Not literally applicable."
    - the_af 7y ago
      > All you have to do is change "comedy duo" to "coworker pair" and "jokes" to "explanation of architecture." But that doesn't work, because it requires changing the meaning/imagery of the metaphor beyond what regular people would recognize. You know, what actually happened in the situation of the original post. Yes, I can change "straight man" to "spaceship" and "jokes" to "launch into space", but it'd be almost as nonsensical. > By the way, have you tried just looking up the word "metaphor?" Yes. Note you misunderstand the definition you quoted. Let me say it once more, then we're done: the CONTEXT of a metaphor is not ITS LITERAL MEANING, so quit yapping about literalness. Context matters. "Straight man" doesn't have the required context, "devil's advocate" does. I don't expect you to acknowledge what I'm saying. At this point I must assume your ego won't let you budge an inch. Have a nice day! (which is not a metaphor, by the way).