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I ported Polar (https://getpolarized.io/ https://getpolarized.io/) over to a PWA about a year ago. It's kind of a nightmare due to both Google and Apple messin

I ported Polar (https://getpolarized.io/ https://getpolarized.io/) over to a PWA about a year ago. It's kind of a nightmare due to both Google and Apple messing things up. PWAs could be an amazing platform but both companies are really messing it up. Apple is trying to kill them by giving plausible explanations as to why they can't have PWAs. Security this, blah blah blah. There's no reason they can't have PWAs work well in Safari other than they want you to port your app to the App Store and get locked into their native APIs. Google's problem is, well, they're Google. Meaning things are somewhat incoherent, docs are all over the place, they start new initiatives then abandon them half way, etc. Consumers are another problem. They have no understanding of PWAs and they go to the app store, don't find us, and then complain we don't have an app.. The plan now is to use Google TWAs and port our PWA to Android. We're going to do the same thing to Apple after we do the Android release BUT I think there's a 50% chance that apple will just flat out block us. I think we might have a chance of getting around it if we use mobile gestures properly, use platform specific APIs like the camera, audio, and GPS that aren't on web and try to really integrate into the platform properly. For example, they have an API to detect dark mode now. IF that's on we're just going to magically enable our dark mode in our app.

vosper 7y ago
> There's no reason they can't have PWAs work well in Safari other than they want you to port your app to the App Store and get locked into their native APIs. Is it possible they also want you to port your app to the App Store to prevent an explosion of garbage and malware that could happen if PWAs really took off?
- jamiesonbecker 7y ago
  > to prevent an explosion of garbage and malware that could happen if PWAs really took off? You mean, like the Internet. The App Store is a nice, safe walled garden, like AOL.
  - edmundsauto 7y ago
    This is one of the primary value props of the platform.
    - ethbro 7y ago
      Value to whom?
      - leadingthenet 7y ago
        To me, as a user of the device. Native apps can be a joy to use, websites almost never are.
        hpen 7y ago
        Sure, but this is usually because of UX reasons and less because of performance or capabilities
    - Grimm1 7y ago
      And is anti-competitive and gives Apple and Google too much power over a device I own.
- franga2000 7y ago
  I seriously doubt that. It's a lot more difficult to do horrible things with PWAs than it is with native apps. Apple has a history of doing everything they can to keep people inside their walled garden and this is just another instance of that.
- heavyset_go 7y ago
  There is absolutely no reason that PWAs can't be sandboxed like native apps, or even more aggressively. In fact, native apps are more likely to be spyware, as they can collect much more information from the user than a browser-based app can.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Native apps ostensibly go through review so that Apple can flag malfeasant behavior that is nonetheless allowed by the sandbox. Think things like a $999 purchase request that pops up on app launch (Yes, I know Apple isn’t that great at this. But that’s the argument that they use for review.)
    - heavyset_go 7y ago
      It's not a good argument because I can find Bonzai Buddy-like apps on the Mac App Store, and they ban any GPL apps on their iPhone App Store.
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        GPL apps are not banned on the iPhone App Store.
        heavyset_go 7y ago
        Yes, they are[1]. The GPL is incompatible with the App Store terms and if Apple is aware that an app uses GPL software, they will reject or remove it from the App Store. [1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/no-gpl-apps-for-apples-app-store/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/no-gpl-apps-for-apples-app-sto...
        saagarjha 7y ago
        That link is from 2011, and the referenced verbiage is nowhere to be found in the App Store terms. I believe that the current terms leave the App Store open to GPL software. Also, Apple will only remove software if you notify them of copyright infringement; it's not their job to preemptively perform licensing enforcement.
b1tr0t 7y ago
Hi there, I'm the product manager for PWAs on the Chrome team. Very interested in hearing about pain points you've had building out PWAs, especially if there's features you were keen on that haven't been released. Easiest way to reach me is on Twitter: https://twitter.com/b1tr0t https://twitter.com/b1tr0t Fully agree with you that docs are all over the place. We've started to consolidate docs under web.dev, and the PWA section launched recently (https://web.dev/progressive-web-apps https://web.dev/progressive-web-apps). Consolidating and adding docs is an active area of investment, and our goal is to create a well lit path for developers to succeed with PWAs.
- searchableguy 7y ago
  More background services would be very nice even though it's a bit of a security nightmare. A request was opened almost 5 years ago for background geolocation services. Any plans for https://developers.google.com/nearby https://developers.google.com/nearby ? I don't want Google or central authorities to decide which PWAs are "trustworthy" directly to ask for certain permissions but there could be a way or compromise. I don't remember which feature it was but it required yes from Google. I really want the first screen after installing PWAs to be their privacy policy or detailing which permissions/how they use them. It should be mandatory and important or may show a default screen with permissions and few dangerous ways they can be used for.
  - hutzlibu 7y ago
    "I really want the first screen after installing PWAs to be their privacy policy or detailing which permissions/how they use them." Wouldn't it make more sense, to display this info before you install a pwa?
    - searchableguy 7y ago
      Oh, yeah before. Though, I think it should also show that screen if a user hasn't used the app for a while.
  - b1tr0t 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
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Razengan 7y ago
> ... Consumers are another problem. ... You blame Apple, Google and your consumers, instead of just making native apps. Why?
- illuminati1911 7y ago
  Yep. Just because "PWA"-geek niche at HN wants to go back to shitty UX from 2004 it doesn't mean all tech companies or consumers want to. I hope Apple keeps restricting this in the future too so that iOS app ecosystem won't turn in to a turkish fruit market full of crap like Android.
  - leadingthenet 7y ago
    You’re getting downvoted, but I agree. Enough with shitty UX’s already!
- PudgePacket 7y ago
  So, make 3 apps instead of 1? This was the whole idea behind PWA.
  - Razengan 7y ago
    Yes, that's the whole idea behind having different devices and operating systems with different capabilities. Why should users suffer the lowest common denominator because of lazy developers?
    - Silhouette 7y ago
      The lowest common denominator is not having the application available on your platform at all.
      - dwaite 7y ago
        I'd rather them not have the resources to get an app working on my platform, then have enough resources to _barely_ get an app working on my platform.
quickthrower2 7y ago
Makes sense, they want you to create native apps so they can collect their rent, and also dictate what is in, what is out, and control searching of apps.
comex 7y ago
I tried using your app on an iPhone (with Add to Home Screen). - If I press the settings gear, the text on the settings page is about twice as wide as the screen, requiring horizontal scrolling. - On the front page, if I open the color picker, it's partially offscreen. - On all pages, if I do a scroll gesture in the wrong direction, it scrolls the entire UI rather than just the scrollable part. Admittedly, iOS has long made this hard to avoid without hacky JavaScript, but it's been doable, and it's much easier now [1]. - The hamburger button on the left opens a modal view that covers all of the screen but a small margin on the right, making it unreasonably hard to exit. - If I try to create a tag or folder, the name prompt appears under the other modal view and is improperly sized. - Oh, and the UI looks thoroughly non-native, e.g. Google-style floating action button, UI not covering the status bar, bottom tab buttons too short, etc. The animations are also haphazard. My point is not just to nitpick. It's just that while I sympathize with the idea of PWAs in principle, almost every single time I see someone talk about theirs, the PWA in question has immediately obvious glaring UI defects that have nothing to do with browser limitations, and leave it far below the standard of a good native app, or even a bad one. I honestly don't know why this is, but experiencing it over and over makes it hard for me to care about PWAs. [1] https://benfrain.com/preventing-body-scroll-for-modals-in-ios/ https://benfrain.com/preventing-body-scroll-for-modals-in-io...
- jdauriemma 7y ago
  There are some fantastic PWAs out there. Twitter is the one I use most regularly. I think one of the reasons we see a lot of less-polished PWAs is that the idea of the PWA appeals to businesses at certain stages. Larger shops can afford to ship native binaries to more than one platform, but a smaller operation can't. PWAs are presumably tempting to those types of product teams: you get multi-platform reach while truly only writing for the web. The fact that their UIs have rough edges are probably a result of having an MVP-stage product.
  - jfkebwjsbx 7y ago
    Writing for the web and trying to be consistent with native UI is a nightmare. It is not about MVP-stage or not, it is simply not worth it.
dazbradbury 7y ago
Regarding your point on consumers, we put our PWA/TWA into the app store (for the reason you outlined) - and now get a raft of negative reviews that the TWA is the same as the mobile site... Which is frustrating, because that's the point. Making it clear why a TWA is in the app store is hard in itself. Trying to explain why it's better for consumers over a native app + mobile site is even harder. See these reviews for yourself here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.openrent https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.openrent
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
> Consumers are another problem. They have no understanding of PWAs... Really? You're blaming your customers for not being sufficiently tech savvy and not wanting what you're providing? Personally, I am happy with Apple's decision here.

vosper 7y ago

> There's no reason they can't have PWAs work well in Safari other than they want you to port your app to the App Store and get locked into their native APIs. Is it possible they also want you to port your app to the App Store to prevent an explosion of garbage and malware that could happen if PWAs really took off?

jamiesonbecker 7y ago
> to prevent an explosion of garbage and malware that could happen if PWAs really took off? You mean, like the Internet. The App Store is a nice, safe walled garden, like AOL.
- edmundsauto 7y ago
  This is one of the primary value props of the platform.
  - ethbro 7y ago
    Value to whom?
    - leadingthenet 7y ago
      To me, as a user of the device. Native apps can be a joy to use, websites almost never are.
      - hpen 7y ago
        Sure, but this is usually because of UX reasons and less because of performance or capabilities
  - Grimm1 7y ago
    And is anti-competitive and gives Apple and Google too much power over a device I own.
franga2000 7y ago
I seriously doubt that. It's a lot more difficult to do horrible things with PWAs than it is with native apps. Apple has a history of doing everything they can to keep people inside their walled garden and this is just another instance of that.
heavyset_go 7y ago
There is absolutely no reason that PWAs can't be sandboxed like native apps, or even more aggressively. In fact, native apps are more likely to be spyware, as they can collect much more information from the user than a browser-based app can.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Native apps ostensibly go through review so that Apple can flag malfeasant behavior that is nonetheless allowed by the sandbox. Think things like a $999 purchase request that pops up on app launch (Yes, I know Apple isn’t that great at this. But that’s the argument that they use for review.)
  - heavyset_go 7y ago
    It's not a good argument because I can find Bonzai Buddy-like apps on the Mac App Store, and they ban any GPL apps on their iPhone App Store.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      GPL apps are not banned on the iPhone App Store.
      - heavyset_go 7y ago
        Yes, they are[1]. The GPL is incompatible with the App Store terms and if Apple is aware that an app uses GPL software, they will reject or remove it from the App Store. [1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/no-gpl-apps-for-apples-app-store/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/no-gpl-apps-for-apples-app-sto...
        saagarjha 7y ago
        That link is from 2011, and the referenced verbiage is nowhere to be found in the App Store terms. I believe that the current terms leave the App Store open to GPL software. Also, Apple will only remove software if you notify them of copyright infringement; it's not their job to preemptively perform licensing enforcement.

b1tr0t 7y ago

Hi there, I'm the product manager for PWAs on the Chrome team. Very interested in hearing about pain points you've had building out PWAs, especially if there's features you were keen on that haven't been released. Easiest way to reach me is on Twitter: https://twitter.com/b1tr0t https://twitter.com/b1tr0t Fully agree with you that docs are all over the place. We've started to consolidate docs under web.dev, and the PWA section launched recently (https://web.dev/progressive-web-apps https://web.dev/progressive-web-apps). Consolidating and adding docs is an active area of investment, and our goal is to create a well lit path for developers to succeed with PWAs.

searchableguy 7y ago
More background services would be very nice even though it's a bit of a security nightmare. A request was opened almost 5 years ago for background geolocation services. Any plans for https://developers.google.com/nearby https://developers.google.com/nearby ? I don't want Google or central authorities to decide which PWAs are "trustworthy" directly to ask for certain permissions but there could be a way or compromise. I don't remember which feature it was but it required yes from Google. I really want the first screen after installing PWAs to be their privacy policy or detailing which permissions/how they use them. It should be mandatory and important or may show a default screen with permissions and few dangerous ways they can be used for.
- hutzlibu 7y ago
  "I really want the first screen after installing PWAs to be their privacy policy or detailing which permissions/how they use them." Wouldn't it make more sense, to display this info before you install a pwa?
  - searchableguy 7y ago
    Oh, yeah before. Though, I think it should also show that screen if a user hasn't used the app for a while.
- b1tr0t 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Razengan 7y ago

> ... Consumers are another problem. ... You blame Apple, Google and your consumers, instead of just making native apps. Why?

illuminati1911 7y ago
Yep. Just because "PWA"-geek niche at HN wants to go back to shitty UX from 2004 it doesn't mean all tech companies or consumers want to. I hope Apple keeps restricting this in the future too so that iOS app ecosystem won't turn in to a turkish fruit market full of crap like Android.
- leadingthenet 7y ago
  You’re getting downvoted, but I agree. Enough with shitty UX’s already!
PudgePacket 7y ago
So, make 3 apps instead of 1? This was the whole idea behind PWA.
- Razengan 7y ago
  Yes, that's the whole idea behind having different devices and operating systems with different capabilities. Why should users suffer the lowest common denominator because of lazy developers?
  - Silhouette 7y ago
    The lowest common denominator is not having the application available on your platform at all.
    - dwaite 7y ago
      I'd rather them not have the resources to get an app working on my platform, then have enough resources to _barely_ get an app working on my platform.

quickthrower2 7y ago

Makes sense, they want you to create native apps so they can collect their rent, and also dictate what is in, what is out, and control searching of apps.

comex 7y ago

I tried using your app on an iPhone (with Add to Home Screen). - If I press the settings gear, the text on the settings page is about twice as wide as the screen, requiring horizontal scrolling. - On the front page, if I open the color picker, it's partially offscreen. - On all pages, if I do a scroll gesture in the wrong direction, it scrolls the entire UI rather than just the scrollable part. Admittedly, iOS has long made this hard to avoid without hacky JavaScript, but it's been doable, and it's much easier now [1]. - The hamburger button on the left opens a modal view that covers all of the screen but a small margin on the right, making it unreasonably hard to exit. - If I try to create a tag or folder, the name prompt appears under the other modal view and is improperly sized. - Oh, and the UI looks thoroughly non-native, e.g. Google-style floating action button, UI not covering the status bar, bottom tab buttons too short, etc. The animations are also haphazard. My point is not just to nitpick. It's just that while I sympathize with the idea of PWAs in principle, almost every single time I see someone talk about theirs, the PWA in question has immediately obvious glaring UI defects that have nothing to do with browser limitations, and leave it far below the standard of a good native app, or even a bad one. I honestly don't know why this is, but experiencing it over and over makes it hard for me to care about PWAs. [1] https://benfrain.com/preventing-body-scroll-for-modals-in-ios/ https://benfrain.com/preventing-body-scroll-for-modals-in-io...

jdauriemma 7y ago
There are some fantastic PWAs out there. Twitter is the one I use most regularly. I think one of the reasons we see a lot of less-polished PWAs is that the idea of the PWA appeals to businesses at certain stages. Larger shops can afford to ship native binaries to more than one platform, but a smaller operation can't. PWAs are presumably tempting to those types of product teams: you get multi-platform reach while truly only writing for the web. The fact that their UIs have rough edges are probably a result of having an MVP-stage product.
- jfkebwjsbx 7y ago
  Writing for the web and trying to be consistent with native UI is a nightmare. It is not about MVP-stage or not, it is simply not worth it.

dazbradbury 7y ago

Regarding your point on consumers, we put our PWA/TWA into the app store (for the reason you outlined) - and now get a raft of negative reviews that the TWA is the same as the mobile site... Which is frustrating, because that's the point. Making it clear why a TWA is in the app store is hard in itself. Trying to explain why it's better for consumers over a native app + mobile site is even harder. See these reviews for yourself here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.openrent https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.openrent

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago

> Consumers are another problem. They have no understanding of PWAs... Really? You're blaming your customers for not being sufficiently tech savvy and not wanting what you're providing? Personally, I am happy with Apple's decision here.