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No one is forcing you to carry a cellphone, and a cellphone really isn’t an inalienable right. There’s a pretty easy solution to this problem if you don’t want

by borkt 7y ago

No one is forcing you to carry a cellphone, and a cellphone really isn’t an inalienable right. There’s a pretty easy solution to this problem if you don’t want to tracked. I’m not in support of what they are doing, but its a bit different than if it were being done with a government mandated biochip or ankle monitor rather than with a phone you voluntarily carry

Traster 7y ago
You're being incredibly narrow with your definition of voluntary there. Are you seriously suggesting people giving up their cell phone is a reasonable price to pay for not being tracked by the government? Edit: In 1776, Adam Smith argued that poverty is the inability to afford "not only the commodities which are indispensably necessary for the support of life, but whatever the custom of the country renders it indecent for creditable people, even of the lowest order, to be without."
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  There's a difference between not being able to own a smartphone (because you can't afford one) and not carrying one because you left it at home.
thefounder 7y ago
Of course you could subvert the surveillance (by mot carrying a phone, credit card or communication device) but people are supposed to enjoy privacy rights by default not by subverting the government. Btw now the cash payments are banned in many places so how are you supposed to avoid being tracked and enjoy your privacy rights?
twojacobtwo 7y ago
Given that a cellphone is necessary for many people to conduct their daily lives/business now[0] and that necessity is increasing over time, your argument quickly boils down to "no one is forcing you to take part in society". Sure, it may true, but what a terrible standard to set or defend. [0] e.g. If I didn't carry a cell phone, I would be fired because I am expected to be reachable while away from the office. This is not a unique situation.
- hnrodey 7y ago
  > If I didn't carry a cell phone, I would be fired because I am expected to be reachable while away from the office. This is not a unique situation. I would argue that this is unique or at the very least, the minority of positions. Only here to say that it's your choice to engage with an employer who makes that decision for you. In other words, find a new job.
  - twojacobtwo 7y ago
    That is just a single example from my personal situation and in my own circle of friends, I am not alone in that expectation. We could look at another example, say the increasingly widespread use of mobile payments in China. How about people living in areas without other major services who need to keep in touch with family/friends/emergency services? Regardless of the other situations, you're also making the assumption that I and others can just immediately find other employment. With the current massive number of layoffs, alternative employment prospects are dropping for a hell of a lot of people. So if this is the only job I can get right now, is it reasonable still to say that I can 'easily' give up my cell phone, for the low low price of not having enough money for rent/mortgage and food?
    - hnrodey 7y ago
      > Regardless of the other situations, you're also making the assumption that I and others can just immediately find other employment. Losing your job because you're "off the grid" is always terrible. This is not an excuse just because now there is more serious ramifications. Perhaps it's just now extra terrible.
  - wolco 7y ago
    This is not a unique position. Many people are on call many require 24 hour availability. Police, doctors, office workers, ceos, techs, sales, real estate, etc all makeup a huge list. Not to mention family needs like parenting, or being a safety contact. Cellphones are as necessary as a phone back in the day. You might be able to get away with not having a phone but things like finding work become extremely difficult.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
There’s a pretty easy solution to this problem if you don’t want to tracked. How easy that is will vary a lot from one person to the next and people who actually, seriously think it's easy are probably fairly privileged, even if they aren't actually wealthy. This will exclude a lot of "working stiff"/office drone types who do get told they must be reachable, etc. Some are issued work phones or Blackberries. I've actually arranged to be free of such impositions. Minor downside: I've been dirt poor for a lot of years. Withdrawing from routine and normal social expectations and also having money and comforts and friends is very much "only the privileged few."
BiteCode_dev 7y ago
> There’s a pretty easy solution to this problem if you don’t want to tracked. - That's assuming enough people know and care about it. You are tracked by the sensors carried by others too. And even if you are not, you live in the society built around the collected data anyway. It affects you. - it's a twisted point of view. I should be able to enjoy the benefit of technology without having the threat of my own fellow human using it against me. This is bullying.
jariel 7y ago
I would argue that in normal conditions, the government tracking your phone is absolutely a problem, constitutionally, and that you absolutely have a 'right not to be tracked'. The issue is the coronavirus which adds another dimension of 'public good'.

by borkt 7y ago

Traster 7y ago

You're being incredibly narrow with your definition of voluntary there. Are you seriously suggesting people giving up their cell phone is a reasonable price to pay for not being tracked by the government? Edit: In 1776, Adam Smith argued that poverty is the inability to afford "not only the commodities which are indispensably necessary for the support of life, but whatever the custom of the country renders it indecent for creditable people, even of the lowest order, to be without."

johnchristopher 7y ago
There's a difference between not being able to own a smartphone (because you can't afford one) and not carrying one because you left it at home.

thefounder 7y ago

Of course you could subvert the surveillance (by mot carrying a phone, credit card or communication device) but people are supposed to enjoy privacy rights by default not by subverting the government. Btw now the cash payments are banned in many places so how are you supposed to avoid being tracked and enjoy your privacy rights?

twojacobtwo 7y ago

Given that a cellphone is necessary for many people to conduct their daily lives/business now[0] and that necessity is increasing over time, your argument quickly boils down to "no one is forcing you to take part in society". Sure, it may true, but what a terrible standard to set or defend. [0] e.g. If I didn't carry a cell phone, I would be fired because I am expected to be reachable while away from the office. This is not a unique situation.

hnrodey 7y ago
> If I didn't carry a cell phone, I would be fired because I am expected to be reachable while away from the office. This is not a unique situation. I would argue that this is unique or at the very least, the minority of positions. Only here to say that it's your choice to engage with an employer who makes that decision for you. In other words, find a new job.
- twojacobtwo 7y ago
  That is just a single example from my personal situation and in my own circle of friends, I am not alone in that expectation. We could look at another example, say the increasingly widespread use of mobile payments in China. How about people living in areas without other major services who need to keep in touch with family/friends/emergency services? Regardless of the other situations, you're also making the assumption that I and others can just immediately find other employment. With the current massive number of layoffs, alternative employment prospects are dropping for a hell of a lot of people. So if this is the only job I can get right now, is it reasonable still to say that I can 'easily' give up my cell phone, for the low low price of not having enough money for rent/mortgage and food?
  - hnrodey 7y ago
    > Regardless of the other situations, you're also making the assumption that I and others can just immediately find other employment. Losing your job because you're "off the grid" is always terrible. This is not an excuse just because now there is more serious ramifications. Perhaps it's just now extra terrible.
- wolco 7y ago
  This is not a unique position. Many people are on call many require 24 hour availability. Police, doctors, office workers, ceos, techs, sales, real estate, etc all makeup a huge list. Not to mention family needs like parenting, or being a safety contact. Cellphones are as necessary as a phone back in the day. You might be able to get away with not having a phone but things like finding work become extremely difficult.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

There’s a pretty easy solution to this problem if you don’t want to tracked. How easy that is will vary a lot from one person to the next and people who actually, seriously think it's easy are probably fairly privileged, even if they aren't actually wealthy. This will exclude a lot of "working stiff"/office drone types who do get told they must be reachable, etc. Some are issued work phones or Blackberries. I've actually arranged to be free of such impositions. Minor downside: I've been dirt poor for a lot of years. Withdrawing from routine and normal social expectations and also having money and comforts and friends is very much "only the privileged few."

BiteCode_dev 7y ago

> There’s a pretty easy solution to this problem if you don’t want to tracked. - That's assuming enough people know and care about it. You are tracked by the sensors carried by others too. And even if you are not, you live in the society built around the collected data anyway. It affects you. - it's a twisted point of view. I should be able to enjoy the benefit of technology without having the threat of my own fellow human using it against me. This is bullying.

jariel 7y ago

I would argue that in normal conditions, the government tracking your phone is absolutely a problem, constitutionally, and that you absolutely have a 'right not to be tracked'. The issue is the coronavirus which adds another dimension of 'public good'.