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Singapore govt had been in news with the development of TraceTogather app for COVID-19 detection and now this. Typically, governments, with all its bureaucracie

Singapore govt had been in news with the development of TraceTogather app for COVID-19 detection and now this. Typically, governments, with all its bureaucracies, are not expected to build things efficiently and with quality, especially complex software which is hard to build even for a supercharged startup. So this is surprising. Someone needs to figure out what are they doing right.

DougBTX 7y ago
> Typically governments are not expected to build things efficiently and with quality I suspect a large source of that sentiment is just marketing, companies need to go out and sell their accomplishments, whereas a civil servant can stop once the job is done. The politicians on the other hand seems to spend most of their time selling promises about the future, rather than things they have actually done.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  The largest source of that sentiment is the DMV. The reason why typically government institutions are less efficient is that there is no inherent incentive for them to be efficient. A competitive market, on the other hand, inherently rewards efficiency. Of course, there's nothing inherently preventing government institutions from being efficient. That can happen when you have the right people doing the right thing. However, you really want to have a system that makes the wrong people do the right thing.
  - sytelus 7y ago
    A large source of it is the vast majority of government agencies. Do you want to repair X in a state park? You are looking at the arduous process to cut through. Do you need to extend your project with government grants by a month or ran over 1% of the assigned budget? You would have a hell to answer for and months to spend in meetings that will well go over 1% in officer salaries. The vast majority of US government website is pure abomination. I had been receiving end of forced to use some of them and wouldn't wish that on anyone. Some of these websites built after spending well over 100s of millions of dollars. Anyone who thinks governments are as efficient in acquiring, retaining, nurturing talent AND equal or better execution then commercial entities, should accept the challenge of getting a government job and see how that feels likes. The exceptions like Estonia and Singapore are rare and far between but should be studied.
    - ben_w 7y ago
      I tend to agree with the others that the problem you’re describing is caused by those government agencies being monopolies rather than them being government agencies — even though I’m non American (and too young anyway), I am aware of the jokes about the poor quality of AT&T towards the end of its monopoly. Conversely, quite a lot of Americans seem to like the military, which might be the single provider of USA national defence but does that by competing with other militaries.
      - sytelus 7y ago
        US military is actually extra-ordinarily inefficient. It's a vast graveyard of massive projects that were either failed or went as much as 10X over budget and/or ran 10X late. In a book called Skunkworks there is some great stories of how these inefficiencies gets enforced on to even those projects that military started with startup model in mind.
      - gridlockd 7y ago
        The military may be popular for various reasons, but that doesn't mean it's efficient. Also, lots of militaries around the world - including the US military - are contracting out to PMCs. Military equipment is usually procured from private companies. Also, most militaries are sitting there idle most of the time, so they're only competing on paper.
leokennis 7y ago
Let's not forget Singapore is pretty autocratic. That surely makes it easier to cut through any bureaucracy and privacy regulations, for example when you quickly need an app to track people and COVID-19 infections. However, that also makes it easier to do the same in times of peace.
- lazylizard 7y ago
  Singapore is nowhere near autocratic enough. China built a hospital in 2 weeks? In singapore the tender wouldn't be out in 2 weeks. Generally theres rules. Generally the rules can be changed. But generally rules don't get broken.
- jhanschoo 7y ago
  No, let's not prematurely chalk up to ideology what is more reasonably explained by a capable government and a smaller country. Autocracy didn't help China nip the pandemic in the bud. Conversely, democratic Taiwan is managing the crisis excellently as well. I observe this reaching for ideological explanations extremely frequently in US media and citizens, and these lazy rationalizations seem to me to be one of the ways the US public sphere collectively hallucinates that that they are the freest and first in the world, while promoting ideological tribalism and partisanship, as citizens vote away their interests to protect their ideological delusion.
  - mthoms 7y ago
    I've long thought this, but you've articulated it way better than I ever could, so thank you. I'd argue that the "smaller country" explanation is also over-used. For example, when single-payer healthcare, gun control or effective government comes up, I often hear the excuse "The US is way more populous than $nation_x so it would never work here!". When asked to further explain their reasoning, many (certainly not all) can't seem to. It's like they never think past the nation-size excuse because it's simply accepted as fact.
    - jhanschoo 7y ago
      I agree that "smaller country" really is also overused. I suppose what I was getting at was the distance of the highest levels of government from the citizen. Taiwan certainly isn't a small country, but its government is certainly in a closer relationship with its citizens concerns than the federal government is with US citizens.
reaperducer 7y ago
So this is surprising Not really. Especially if you've been there. Singapore is considered one of the more nimble governments of the world. But it's easy to be so when you have a small population in a small area.

DougBTX 7y ago

> Typically governments are not expected to build things efficiently and with quality I suspect a large source of that sentiment is just marketing, companies need to go out and sell their accomplishments, whereas a civil servant can stop once the job is done. The politicians on the other hand seems to spend most of their time selling promises about the future, rather than things they have actually done.

gridlockd 7y ago
The largest source of that sentiment is the DMV. The reason why typically government institutions are less efficient is that there is no inherent incentive for them to be efficient. A competitive market, on the other hand, inherently rewards efficiency. Of course, there's nothing inherently preventing government institutions from being efficient. That can happen when you have the right people doing the right thing. However, you really want to have a system that makes the wrong people do the right thing.
- sytelus 7y ago
  A large source of it is the vast majority of government agencies. Do you want to repair X in a state park? You are looking at the arduous process to cut through. Do you need to extend your project with government grants by a month or ran over 1% of the assigned budget? You would have a hell to answer for and months to spend in meetings that will well go over 1% in officer salaries. The vast majority of US government website is pure abomination. I had been receiving end of forced to use some of them and wouldn't wish that on anyone. Some of these websites built after spending well over 100s of millions of dollars. Anyone who thinks governments are as efficient in acquiring, retaining, nurturing talent AND equal or better execution then commercial entities, should accept the challenge of getting a government job and see how that feels likes. The exceptions like Estonia and Singapore are rare and far between but should be studied.
  - ben_w 7y ago
    I tend to agree with the others that the problem you’re describing is caused by those government agencies being monopolies rather than them being government agencies — even though I’m non American (and too young anyway), I am aware of the jokes about the poor quality of AT&T towards the end of its monopoly. Conversely, quite a lot of Americans seem to like the military, which might be the single provider of USA national defence but does that by competing with other militaries.
    - sytelus 7y ago
      US military is actually extra-ordinarily inefficient. It's a vast graveyard of massive projects that were either failed or went as much as 10X over budget and/or ran 10X late. In a book called Skunkworks there is some great stories of how these inefficiencies gets enforced on to even those projects that military started with startup model in mind.
    - gridlockd 7y ago
      The military may be popular for various reasons, but that doesn't mean it's efficient. Also, lots of militaries around the world - including the US military - are contracting out to PMCs. Military equipment is usually procured from private companies. Also, most militaries are sitting there idle most of the time, so they're only competing on paper.

leokennis 7y ago

Let's not forget Singapore is pretty autocratic. That surely makes it easier to cut through any bureaucracy and privacy regulations, for example when you quickly need an app to track people and COVID-19 infections. However, that also makes it easier to do the same in times of peace.

lazylizard 7y ago
Singapore is nowhere near autocratic enough. China built a hospital in 2 weeks? In singapore the tender wouldn't be out in 2 weeks. Generally theres rules. Generally the rules can be changed. But generally rules don't get broken.
jhanschoo 7y ago
No, let's not prematurely chalk up to ideology what is more reasonably explained by a capable government and a smaller country. Autocracy didn't help China nip the pandemic in the bud. Conversely, democratic Taiwan is managing the crisis excellently as well. I observe this reaching for ideological explanations extremely frequently in US media and citizens, and these lazy rationalizations seem to me to be one of the ways the US public sphere collectively hallucinates that that they are the freest and first in the world, while promoting ideological tribalism and partisanship, as citizens vote away their interests to protect their ideological delusion.
- mthoms 7y ago
  I've long thought this, but you've articulated it way better than I ever could, so thank you. I'd argue that the "smaller country" explanation is also over-used. For example, when single-payer healthcare, gun control or effective government comes up, I often hear the excuse "The US is way more populous than $nation_x so it would never work here!". When asked to further explain their reasoning, many (certainly not all) can't seem to. It's like they never think past the nation-size excuse because it's simply accepted as fact.
  - jhanschoo 7y ago
    I agree that "smaller country" really is also overused. I suppose what I was getting at was the distance of the highest levels of government from the citizen. Taiwan certainly isn't a small country, but its government is certainly in a closer relationship with its citizens concerns than the federal government is with US citizens.

reaperducer 7y ago

So this is surprising Not really. Especially if you've been there. Singapore is considered one of the more nimble governments of the world. But it's easy to be so when you have a small population in a small area.