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Aye, and it lives up to that claim as well in my opinion, despite being still relatively young and pre-1.0. My favorite thing about Zig is that it has managed t

Aye, and it lives up to that claim as well in my opinion, despite being still relatively young and pre-1.0. My favorite thing about Zig is that it has managed to stay simple and solve many of the problems of C without resorting to greatly increased complexity like Rust (which is much more of a C++ replacement than a C replacement in my opinion).

d4mi3n 7y ago
IMO the marketing as Rust as a C/C++ replacement is a bit misplaced. I think it's more accurate to consider it an alternative systems language. The tools/languages used in this space are a bit broader than C-family languages.
- ifreund 7y ago
  That's true, though systems programming is in practice dominated by the C ABI (great post on that here by the way https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/03/Abiopause.html https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/03/Abiopause.html). Zig does something quite special that puts it ahead of the crowd in this space; It can import and use C libraries as easily as C does (no bindings required), and it can itself be built into a C library, auto-generating the required C headers.
  - d4mi3n 7y ago
    You are absolutely correct on the point of the C ABI. It's definitely the systems lingua franca. Just finished reading the Zig cc article and I must say I'm also quite impressed. I'll be keeping an eye on the next Zig release--being able to eventually use it as a `cc` or `mvsc` replacement would be a big game changer. Having recently run the study of trying to cross compile a few C++ and GTK apps, I can really see the appeal.
stjohnswarts 7y ago
I know it's not as complicated as C++ but it sure seems like they're in a rush to get there :) . Modern (post c++14) covers most of my criticisms of c++ for my daily driver. I still poke at Rust because I really love statically typed languages :)
- yarrel 7y ago
  I've been very surprised by Rust's complexity. Some of it seems to be being hidden over time (as well as adding new features) but its syntax at any given moment is generally more complex than C++.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Really? I would consider its syntax to be of similar complexity but of higher consistency. What parts of it do you find complex?
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      When you happen to have generics coupled with lifetime annotations for example.
- throwaway17_17 7y ago
  I’m not being contrarian, but I have only been following Zig in passing. Can you give a few example of the increase in complexity, I am genuinely curious. Zig seems, to my eyes at least, to have done an admirable job of remaining simple when compared to the behemoth that is C++, of any vintage (but especially post C++03).
LessDmesg 7y ago
Rust is not a C++ replacement, nor a C replacement. It targets its own niche (embedded, realtime, correctness-oriented). It's a totally different development culture. Zig, OTOH, is absolutely a C replacement.
- otabdeveloper2 7y ago
  > It targets its own niche (embedded, realtime, correctness-oriented). I don't know of anyone who actually uses Rust in that niche. Everyone who uses Rust is using it because of "C++ is hard, let's go shopping instead" syndrome. I.e., at this point it's a language for beginners to ease themselves into programming without training wheels and eventually graduate to real big boy programming languages.
  - smolder 7y ago
    This is a strange sentiment. I think 99/100 people who know rust would not categorize it as "for beginners"
    - otabdeveloper2 7y ago
      It's pretty much irrelevant what people feel emotionally about Rust. The real-world fact is that Rust is, as of March 2020 at least, an entry-level systems programming language. It's used as a stepping stone by former PHP/Python/Go programmers, who are very intimidated by C++, to get into performance-oriented coding. Nobody actually writing embedded or sensitive code (airplanes, nuclear power stations, etc.) is doing it in Rust.
      - dystroy 7y ago
        This makes zero sense and it's not about emotion. The language is young and you don't certify a software solution every two days or don't rewrite your nuclear power station code every day. Very experienced programmers switched to Rust because it makes it possible to build large scale industrial programs both efficient and reliable. They won't switch to C++ just because they think they're good enough to live dangerously. (btw I work on plant control and yes I write parts in Rust)

d4mi3n 7y ago

IMO the marketing as Rust as a C/C++ replacement is a bit misplaced. I think it's more accurate to consider it an alternative systems language. The tools/languages used in this space are a bit broader than C-family languages.

ifreund 7y ago
That's true, though systems programming is in practice dominated by the C ABI (great post on that here by the way https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/03/Abiopause.html https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/03/Abiopause.html). Zig does something quite special that puts it ahead of the crowd in this space; It can import and use C libraries as easily as C does (no bindings required), and it can itself be built into a C library, auto-generating the required C headers.
- d4mi3n 7y ago
  You are absolutely correct on the point of the C ABI. It's definitely the systems lingua franca. Just finished reading the Zig cc article and I must say I'm also quite impressed. I'll be keeping an eye on the next Zig release--being able to eventually use it as a `cc` or `mvsc` replacement would be a big game changer. Having recently run the study of trying to cross compile a few C++ and GTK apps, I can really see the appeal.

stjohnswarts 7y ago

I know it's not as complicated as C++ but it sure seems like they're in a rush to get there :) . Modern (post c++14) covers most of my criticisms of c++ for my daily driver. I still poke at Rust because I really love statically typed languages :)

yarrel 7y ago
I've been very surprised by Rust's complexity. Some of it seems to be being hidden over time (as well as adding new features) but its syntax at any given moment is generally more complex than C++.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Really? I would consider its syntax to be of similar complexity but of higher consistency. What parts of it do you find complex?
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    When you happen to have generics coupled with lifetime annotations for example.
throwaway17_17 7y ago
I’m not being contrarian, but I have only been following Zig in passing. Can you give a few example of the increase in complexity, I am genuinely curious. Zig seems, to my eyes at least, to have done an admirable job of remaining simple when compared to the behemoth that is C++, of any vintage (but especially post C++03).

LessDmesg 7y ago

Rust is not a C++ replacement, nor a C replacement. It targets its own niche (embedded, realtime, correctness-oriented). It's a totally different development culture. Zig, OTOH, is absolutely a C replacement.

otabdeveloper2 7y ago
> It targets its own niche (embedded, realtime, correctness-oriented). I don't know of anyone who actually uses Rust in that niche. Everyone who uses Rust is using it because of "C++ is hard, let's go shopping instead" syndrome. I.e., at this point it's a language for beginners to ease themselves into programming without training wheels and eventually graduate to real big boy programming languages.
- smolder 7y ago
  This is a strange sentiment. I think 99/100 people who know rust would not categorize it as "for beginners"
  - otabdeveloper2 7y ago
    It's pretty much irrelevant what people feel emotionally about Rust. The real-world fact is that Rust is, as of March 2020 at least, an entry-level systems programming language. It's used as a stepping stone by former PHP/Python/Go programmers, who are very intimidated by C++, to get into performance-oriented coding. Nobody actually writing embedded or sensitive code (airplanes, nuclear power stations, etc.) is doing it in Rust.
    - dystroy 7y ago
      This makes zero sense and it's not about emotion. The language is young and you don't certify a software solution every two days or don't rewrite your nuclear power station code every day. Very experienced programmers switched to Rust because it makes it possible to build large scale industrial programs both efficient and reliable. They won't switch to C++ just because they think they're good enough to live dangerously. (btw I work on plant control and yes I write parts in Rust)