4 ms·

1 and 2 are not a defense. That's a garbage ecosystem and we would all be happier without them. 3 is you're telling me not to believe my eyes. I'm sorry, there

1 and 2 are not a defense. That's a garbage ecosystem and we would all be happier without them. 3 is you're telling me not to believe my eyes. I'm sorry, there are some things that are so dumb you have to be very smart to trick yourself into believing them. You don't need a sophisticated statistical analysis to know what kind of advertisements you see where. 4 is circular reasoning. "Targeted ads are better than non-targeted, so if (per 1 and 2) I've already conceded that many targeted ads are garbage, I need to hypothesize (3) that the non-targeted ads are somehow worse even against the evidence of sense." 5: Google and Facebook are separate entities and need separate explanations. Facebook is a pure parasite. It does nothing for publishers except drive them traffic (which is in itself, a cost center, not a profit center). Publishers need to figure out how to convert traffic into profit. If we're talking about publishing, that requires the ads to be on their site, which means Google. But Google is screwing the publishers too because they can track and deliver eyeballs from anywhere. It's just an obviously sick ecosystem. People have been doing advertising supported publishing since the 19th century, and it was fine until ten minutes ago, when suddenly tracking was possible. Coincidentally, ad supported publishing collapsed at the same time that tracking became possible. Is this really a coincidence? You've got to be pretty clever to convince yourself that it is…

jariel 7y ago
1) I don't need to 'defend' the system. Targetting works. 1b) "That's a garbage ecosystem and we would all be happier without them." This is demonstrably false, unfortunately. The ads power Facebook, Google, much of Entertainment. Almost everywhere you see an ad - that place would disappear without that ad. So a 'future without ads' is essentially a future without any of those things - and you and anyone else can stop using those things right now, and thereby avoid both the ads and the service. People chose the crappy ads, with the service, instead of the alternative: nothing. Granted, there could be more paywalls, but there wouldn't be enough 'pay' to keep the services alive. 2) Yes, I'm 100% telling you that I don't believe your self-assessment of the kinds of ads you see overall. I think most people have no idea of the true inventory they are witnesses, rather, they remember only the tiny fragment that sticks out. 'Your evidence of sense' - is telling you that 'ads are a waste' when 'evidence of a $100B economy' and 'science' is definitely telling you that ads are effective. Even untargeted, or crudely targetted. 3) I don't think it's circular reasoning to point out that many ads are not targeted. You're missing the underlying point - that not all ads land on target, irrespective of how sophisticated the targetting in. That inefficiency is accounted for in the system. FYI - as part of 'item #2' not only are you going to be unaware of how many and which ads you saw, you're also going to be completely unaware of their effect on your behavior in most cases. BMW has been advertising to you since the moment you could recognize their logo, a decade before you could even consider buying a car. That programming 'adds up' to something, no pun intended. 5) Your view of Facebook as a 'parasite' is your own, it's not objective - they have a Billion people who like using it just fine. You're also confusing the collapse of print and the complete commoditization of information, with ads. I'm going to assume that you've never placed an ad of any kind, and have no exposure to the industry. I'd encourage trying it, even by spending $50 on FB or Google perhaps trying to garner interest in your favorite Open Source Project. You'll learn a lot in the process. The irony of your ire ... is that better-targeted ads are generally better for everyone - both consumer and advertiser. They are the least annoying and most informative. Though we don't like the invasion of our privacy, the 'targetting' part is really good.
- earthboundkid 7y ago
  > This is demonstrably false, unfortunately. You can't just wish away all of advertising before 2005. It wasn't perfect, but it was fine. Publishing has been collapsing since then and the reasons aren't confusing. Yes, _as an advertiser_, having targeting is great. But as a mining company, dumping waste water in the river is great. Who cares? It matters what effect your actions have on the system as a whole.
- earthboundkid 7y ago
  Completely different tact here: I want you to think about people’s favorite ads. Many people have consciously chosen favorite ads—like Budweiser commercials or some of the Geico series or Flo from Progressive Insurance or the entire joke that the ads are better than the Super Bowl or “ MailKimp” from Serial or a million other things. People line their dorm rooms with vodka ads from magazines or Apple print ads. Many more things are ads but not consciously perceived as ads, like the Hollywood sign or Instagram influencers, or Rolex watches, or in your example the BMW logo. What do people’s favorite ads all have in common? No one likes targeted ads. At best, people like when you do a search and get geographically relevant results. But that’s not even tracking, just IP location. Everyone loves ads but no one likes targeted ads.

jariel 7y ago

1) I don't need to 'defend' the system. Targetting works. 1b) "That's a garbage ecosystem and we would all be happier without them." This is demonstrably false, unfortunately. The ads power Facebook, Google, much of Entertainment. Almost everywhere you see an ad - that place would disappear without that ad. So a 'future without ads' is essentially a future without any of those things - and you and anyone else can stop using those things right now, and thereby avoid both the ads and the service. People chose the crappy ads, with the service, instead of the alternative: nothing. Granted, there could be more paywalls, but there wouldn't be enough 'pay' to keep the services alive. 2) Yes, I'm 100% telling you that I don't believe your self-assessment of the kinds of ads you see overall. I think most people have no idea of the true inventory they are witnesses, rather, they remember only the tiny fragment that sticks out. 'Your evidence of sense' - is telling you that 'ads are a waste' when 'evidence of a $100B economy' and 'science' is definitely telling you that ads are effective. Even untargeted, or crudely targetted. 3) I don't think it's circular reasoning to point out that many ads are not targeted. You're missing the underlying point - that not all ads land on target, irrespective of how sophisticated the targetting in. That inefficiency is accounted for in the system. FYI - as part of 'item #2' not only are you going to be unaware of how many and which ads you saw, you're also going to be completely unaware of their effect on your behavior in most cases. BMW has been advertising to you since the moment you could recognize their logo, a decade before you could even consider buying a car. That programming 'adds up' to something, no pun intended. 5) Your view of Facebook as a 'parasite' is your own, it's not objective - they have a Billion people who like using it just fine. You're also confusing the collapse of print and the complete commoditization of information, with ads. I'm going to assume that you've never placed an ad of any kind, and have no exposure to the industry. I'd encourage trying it, even by spending $50 on FB or Google perhaps trying to garner interest in your favorite Open Source Project. You'll learn a lot in the process. The irony of your ire ... is that better-targeted ads are generally better for everyone - both consumer and advertiser. They are the least annoying and most informative. Though we don't like the invasion of our privacy, the 'targetting' part is really good.

earthboundkid 7y ago
> This is demonstrably false, unfortunately. You can't just wish away all of advertising before 2005. It wasn't perfect, but it was fine. Publishing has been collapsing since then and the reasons aren't confusing. Yes, _as an advertiser_, having targeting is great. But as a mining company, dumping waste water in the river is great. Who cares? It matters what effect your actions have on the system as a whole.
earthboundkid 7y ago
Completely different tact here: I want you to think about people’s favorite ads. Many people have consciously chosen favorite ads—like Budweiser commercials or some of the Geico series or Flo from Progressive Insurance or the entire joke that the ads are better than the Super Bowl or “ MailKimp” from Serial or a million other things. People line their dorm rooms with vodka ads from magazines or Apple print ads. Many more things are ads but not consciously perceived as ads, like the Hollywood sign or Instagram influencers, or Rolex watches, or in your example the BMW logo. What do people’s favorite ads all have in common? No one likes targeted ads. At best, people like when you do a search and get geographically relevant results. But that’s not even tracking, just IP location. Everyone loves ads but no one likes targeted ads.