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What was expected to become a quick and decisive victory for the otherwise highly effective Qing army, ended in a stalemate. This was a constant theme througho

What was expected to become a quick and decisive victory for the otherwise highly effective Qing army, ended in a stalemate. This was a constant theme throughout Chinese dynastic history -- leaders at the provincial or national level underestimating the military capabilities of tribal peoples/"barbarians," rebels, and smaller tributary states. The preceding Ming dynasty is littered with similar examples involving Japanese-led pirate bands on the coast and tribal groups to the north and west. The 15th-century Zhengtong Emperor decided to take part in crushing one border flare-up with the Mongols, and was even captured. The dynasty itself was ended by Manchu invaders in the mid-1600s. I don't believe the Ming ever trained a distinct/elite group of special forces as described in TFA, but innovative and effective generals were sometimes given special commands and employed new modes of training and tactics but using regular conscripted forces. The aforementioned Japanese-led pirates raiding the coast were vanquished in this way. I recommend 1587, A Year of No Significance: The Ming Dynasty in Decline by Ray Huang (a historian and former military officer) for anyone who is interested in this topic.

ksec 7y ago
>I don't believe the Ming ever trained a distinct/elite group of special forces as described in TFA Embroidered Uniform Guard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embroidered_Uniform_Guard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embroidered_Uniform_Guard
hangonhn 7y ago
But that's not a problem unique to China. Historically people from stronger/wealthier nations have underestimated others in poorer nations, especially when the poorer country is on the defense. Mongols vs. Vietnam, UK vs. Maori, Japan vs. China (China took a beating but Japan thought they can win the war in 4 months and China's strategy did win out in the end at great cost.), Chinese nationalist vs. Chinese communists, France vs. Vietnam, US vs. Vietnam, China vs. Vietnam, USSR vs. Afghanistan, etc.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Everyone else vs someone else in Afghanistan...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - blarg1 7y ago
    Chinese actually fought there and won at one point.
- justaguyhere 7y ago
  Sivaji's raiding attacks are also a good example. His army was a very small group of horsemen (at least in the beginning), but was very, very effective in being a major headache to Mughals and others
- swampthing 7y ago
  Japan versus China? Do people really consider China to have won that one? I always thought they mostly made it out due to the US defeating Japan.
  - yorwba 7y ago
    China was not yet defeated and was slowly retaking territory, but of course Japan's unconditional surrender made everything much easier. HistoryLapse has a pretty good article on that last stage of the Second Sino-Japanese War: https://en.historylapse.org/japan%27s-defeat-in-the-second-sino-japanese-war https://en.historylapse.org/japan%27s-defeat-in-the-second-s...
  - hangonhn 7y ago
    You should read up on what Chiang's strategy. He knew that Japan can no way take China quickly enough and that Japan was still too weak to defeat a major Western power. He realized where Japan had won in China in the past was because China kept trying to make peace after initial defeats so Japan was able to take China bit by bit. Based on this assumptions, his plan was to retreat into the interior, last as long as possible, and wait for aid from the Western nations. A lot of history mocked Chiang but in the past two decades after China opened up the archives in Nanjing, Chiang has started to look much less of a fool but a strategist playing with a weak deck of cards. Counting on the Western powers was always part of his plan. He sent one son to Germany and another to the USSR as sort of "hostages". Stalin was a major supplier of arms to China for a while because Stalin needed China to occupy Japan's attention. Germany also ended up helping China by sending advisers to train the Chinese army (a big part of the reason why China lasted as long as it did and why the Battle of Shanghai stunned Japan.) At the same time Chiang sent his US educated wife to court the Americans. She actually got to testify in front of Congress to appeal for aid and her Southern accent was actually quite charming to some. Not all wars are won on the battlefield (i.e. Vietnam War, etc.)

ksec 7y ago

>I don't believe the Ming ever trained a distinct/elite group of special forces as described in TFA Embroidered Uniform Guard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embroidered_Uniform_Guard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embroidered_Uniform_Guard

hangonhn 7y ago

But that's not a problem unique to China. Historically people from stronger/wealthier nations have underestimated others in poorer nations, especially when the poorer country is on the defense. Mongols vs. Vietnam, UK vs. Maori, Japan vs. China (China took a beating but Japan thought they can win the war in 4 months and China's strategy did win out in the end at great cost.), Chinese nationalist vs. Chinese communists, France vs. Vietnam, US vs. Vietnam, China vs. Vietnam, USSR vs. Afghanistan, etc.

jacobush 7y ago
Everyone else vs someone else in Afghanistan...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- blarg1 7y ago
  Chinese actually fought there and won at one point.
justaguyhere 7y ago
Sivaji's raiding attacks are also a good example. His army was a very small group of horsemen (at least in the beginning), but was very, very effective in being a major headache to Mughals and others
swampthing 7y ago
Japan versus China? Do people really consider China to have won that one? I always thought they mostly made it out due to the US defeating Japan.
- yorwba 7y ago
  China was not yet defeated and was slowly retaking territory, but of course Japan's unconditional surrender made everything much easier. HistoryLapse has a pretty good article on that last stage of the Second Sino-Japanese War: https://en.historylapse.org/japan%27s-defeat-in-the-second-sino-japanese-war https://en.historylapse.org/japan%27s-defeat-in-the-second-s...
- hangonhn 7y ago
  You should read up on what Chiang's strategy. He knew that Japan can no way take China quickly enough and that Japan was still too weak to defeat a major Western power. He realized where Japan had won in China in the past was because China kept trying to make peace after initial defeats so Japan was able to take China bit by bit. Based on this assumptions, his plan was to retreat into the interior, last as long as possible, and wait for aid from the Western nations. A lot of history mocked Chiang but in the past two decades after China opened up the archives in Nanjing, Chiang has started to look much less of a fool but a strategist playing with a weak deck of cards. Counting on the Western powers was always part of his plan. He sent one son to Germany and another to the USSR as sort of "hostages". Stalin was a major supplier of arms to China for a while because Stalin needed China to occupy Japan's attention. Germany also ended up helping China by sending advisers to train the Chinese army (a big part of the reason why China lasted as long as it did and why the Battle of Shanghai stunned Japan.) At the same time Chiang sent his US educated wife to court the Americans. She actually got to testify in front of Congress to appeal for aid and her Southern accent was actually quite charming to some. Not all wars are won on the battlefield (i.e. Vietnam War, etc.)