> I quickly figured it was pay to win (or a massive grind which is IMO an excuse). A grindy system basically -is- pay to win for anyone who has a fulltime job

> I quickly figured it was pay to win (or a massive grind which is IMO an excuse). A grindy system basically -is- pay to win for anyone who has a fulltime job and responsibilities. Good luck grinding for what you need if you only play ~30-60 mins every other day or so. I've always disliked league due to this. On top of cosmetics, I also have to purchase heroes...? I guess, or I can just play dota (which is a better game, no bias here :-)). > IMO they innovated pay to win With MTG it was entirely too expensive for our group, so we used Cockatrice to play it for free online. Commander/EDH is fun with friends. More so when you can play decks where the only limit is your creativity. However, one fun and relatively inexpensive format is booster drafts for mtg. I used to play this every once in a while at my local card shop. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_formats#Booster_Draft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_formats#B... > Hearthstone At least you can sell MtG cards. Hearthstone was manageable when it first came out, but I took a break for a while and was overwhelmed when I came back. That devolved into a soulless grind of a game unless one started spending some money on opening packs (... for each expansion). Hearthstone also made me realize I dislike trading card games in a competitive environment. I like fooling around in EDH with wonky decks with a few friends, but trying to climb the hearthstone ladder was terrible.