5 ms·

This is ridiculous. There has been studies and papers being written and released for MONTHS from all over the world. We’ve known about chloroquine since Janua

by blhack 7y ago

This is ridiculous. There has been studies and papers being written and released for MONTHS from all over the world. We’ve known about chloroquine since January. This INSISTENCE people keep having on politicizing this is infuriating and it’s going to get people killed. Stop doing this. Now is not the time for political point gathering.

jonny_eh 7y ago
> it’s going to get people killed Like the man that the article is about?
- blhack 7y ago
  Yes, exactly like the man in the article. People are trying to make this into some political, partisan fight, which causes people’s trust in experts to be eroded. There’s a whole story about this called the boy who cried wolf.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    The President's whole brand is that he knows more than the experts. I'm listening to him right now, live, saying 'the doctors re telling us we have to shut down the whole world, they want to shut it down for years, but you can't let the cure be worse than the problem.' He's talking complete nonsense about quarantine and how bad it is to close the stock exchange while saying the quarantine is a bigger problem than the virus because he's created so many jobs and that it'll cause 'tremendous death.' ¯\(°_o)/¯
    - gwright 7y ago
      Hard to understand your point. It seems quite obvious to me that you can't shut down the world economy for any length of time without introducing enormous amounts of collateral damage (i.e. deaths). What is nonsense about that?
      - anigbrowl 7y ago
        I think you understand my point just fine.
      - HarryHirsch 7y ago
        The experts in China, South Korea and Taiwan have proven that you can get the disease under control with testing, contract tracing and serious quarantine methods. The alternative is collapsing the healthcare system because available hospital beds are full of coronavirus patients - coronavirus isn't the flu, 20 % of patients are hospitalized for three weeks. We are observing that in Italy and New York State. The President needs to stop talking generalities.
        gwright 7y ago
        They also haven't shut down their economies, which was the point I was making. The actions you describe are not mutually exclusive to a more nuanced approach to reduced economic activity. That is, something other than economic suicide.
        enraged_camel 7y ago
        They were able to take a more nuanced and targeted approach because they got their testing infrastructure in place very quickly and made tests widely available. That way, they were able to quickly figure out who had the virus and needed to be quarantined. The USA, in stark contrast, had a gutted CDC (thanks to the hard work of the GOP to shrink the government), an abolished White House Pandemic Response office (used to be part of the national security group), and a President who first ignored and then downplayed repeated warnings from his own country's Intelligence Community because he thought it was a "hoax". That is why the time for "nuanced" approaches is past, and drastic actions are needed. You can check this website for some sobering charts: https://covidactnow.org/ https://covidactnow.org/ Regarding the economy, tell me this: do you seriously think our economy can handle millions of deaths within the span of several months?
        gwright 7y ago
    - irq11 7y ago
      I’m a died-in-the-wool liberal, and I think he’s right about that. We aren’t rationally weighing costs and benefits right now. We really should be talking more about what we’re doing to the economy, and if there are better ways to move forward.
  - rbanffy 7y ago
    The only trust that should be eroded is the one on Trump who, despite his beliefs, is not an expert in anything I can imagine.
- halyconWays 7y ago
  President talks about the preliminary reports that HCQ is working for treating COVID-19 around the world. It might be a good treatment here. People freak out. "Preliminary doesn't mean proven!" Man self-medicates with HCQ and dies. President's fault??
  - rbanffy 7y ago
    President shouldn't talk about things he clearly doesn't understand. Compare this to how Obama used to measure every single word he said.
    - refurb 7y ago
      All presidents talk about stuff they don't understand.
      - robotresearcher 7y ago
        Like this? “I like this stuff. I really get it. [...] People are really surprised I understand this stuff. Every one of these doctors said, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability.” “Anybody who wants a test will get a test, that’s the bottom line. [...] The tests are all perfect, like the letter was perfect, the transcription was perfect, right? This was not as perfect as that, but pretty good.”
      - otterley 7y ago
        Perhaps so, but some things are more important to delegate to experts than others. There's little harm in misstating the speed of light; another to suggest that a potentially hazardous drug that can be found OTC can be used to cure a virus when it cannot - and especially without dosage information.
  - otterley 7y ago
    Yes, I think so. People grew up to trust institutions, and for decades they had good reason to (at least in the subjects of public health and safety). Who's to blame when after decades -- no, centuries -- we elect a leader who makes false claims that are counter to medical science -- and potentially hazardous, if followed, to the public health? The victim, or the authority? I know which party I blame.
cameronbrown 7y ago
I know you've got a point, but I genuinely can't tell which side you're having a go at.
- thomasahle 7y ago
  Does it have to be one or the other?
JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
Would have the man consumed the chloroquine if not for Trump broadcasting it? I'm willing to entertain both yes or no to this question, but I'm going to guess the gentlemen didn't know based off the scientific literature, but rather, the daily press briefings. And that differentiation does matter.
- ModernMech 7y ago
  According to the wife of the deceased, they took it after hearing from the "President and his buddies" that it was safe and "pretty much a cure" "We saw Trump on TV -- every channel -- & all of his buddies and that this was safe," she said. "Trump kept saying it was basically pretty much a cure." https://twitter.com/HeidiNBC/status/1242238268277755905 https://twitter.com/HeidiNBC/status/1242238268277755905 NBC: "Did you at any point hear that the FDA had not approved of it for coronavirus purposes or--?" AZ Woman: "Yeah. But you know they kept saying that it was approved for other things...Trump kept saying it was basically pretty much a cure." https://twitter.com/VaughnHillyard/status/1242254717696094208 https://twitter.com/VaughnHillyard/status/124225471769609420...
mulmen 7y ago
I don't see how this is political or harmful. It's a valid criticism of the president based purely on his own actions and their obvious consequences with no mention of party.
- pbreit 7y ago
  The main reason chloroquine is getting criticism is because Trump mentioned. This is utterly insane.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
NicoJuicy 7y ago
Doesn't mean he is wrong though, the transcript is mentioned below.
rblatz 7y ago
So this isn’t a helpful tone. You are politicizing this, the FDA doesn’t just trust poorly done studies and common sense, this is why we didn’t approve Thalidomide when it was widely considered safe. Additionally you are responding to an article about people who took the drug to treat Covid-19. Peoples lives are at stake on both sides, a politician with no medical training should know better than to run his mouth about something he knows nothing about.
- jdminhbg 7y ago
  > Additionally you are responding to an article about people who took the drug to treat Covid-19. No, they did not. They took an aquarium cleaning chemical with a similar name.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    Looks like they weren't alone: https://nypost.com/2020/03/19/sales-of-fish-tank-additive-skyrocket-after-studies-say-it-could-treat-coronavirus/ https://nypost.com/2020/03/19/sales-of-fish-tank-additive-sk...
- jussij 7y ago
  The FDA also makes mistakes. For example they total stuffed it up with their handling of Oxycontin: https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime/2018/07/13/purdue-justifies-pushing-oxycontin-citing-fda-rules-helped-write/777802002/ https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime/2018/07/13/purdue-...
jacobwilliamroy 7y ago
Yes panic and react. Yes, you are in the correct state of mind for crisis response. Yes. /sarcasm
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
et2o 7y ago
There is NOT good RCT evidence for the efficacy of chloroquine for COVID —— Medical Professional Stop acting like there is. It’s insane at this point. It might work, but frankly it’s unlikely given the history of chloroquine’s failures as an antiviral.
- pbreit 7y ago
  There is...both in vitro and in vivo. The pushback on chloroquine is completely insane. It's a 90 year old, well-understood drug used safely by millions with mild side effects.
  - et2o 7y ago
    Sorry, this is just not true. The in-vitro results for chloroquine as an antiviral have been positive for many viruses, but it has never worked out in RCTs. Claiming there is good evidence from in-vivo studies is scientifically illiterate. Please post links to well-done RCTs if you believe they exist. There is a reason the WHO is running a 5-arm clinical trial for COVID. Edit: Your response to me literally says “In-Vitro” in the title. Edit 2: “There is absolutely evidence” ... But no links. No, sorry, you are still just wrong.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - pbreit 7y ago
      There is absolutely evidence of effectiveness against COVID-19 in humans from China, South Korea & France.
      - et2o 7y ago
        Please let me and the CDC know of these well-conducted trials of chloroquine for COVID. I take it you are not familiar with epidemiology, clinical evaluation of drug efficacy, or medical statistics. That’s fine! No one is saying you need to be. But you shouldn’t be extremely confident of your conclusions when experts are telling you that you’re wrong. The French chloroquine+azithromycin trial was terrible and no one in the medical world believes it. There’s a reason no respectable journal would publish it. SIX of the people in the C+A arm died and were removed from the analysis, which is absurd. The outcome was viral titers, which were different for different arms. Just maddening.

by blhack 7y ago

jonny_eh 7y ago

> it’s going to get people killed Like the man that the article is about?

blhack 7y ago
Yes, exactly like the man in the article. People are trying to make this into some political, partisan fight, which causes people’s trust in experts to be eroded. There’s a whole story about this called the boy who cried wolf.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  The President's whole brand is that he knows more than the experts. I'm listening to him right now, live, saying 'the doctors re telling us we have to shut down the whole world, they want to shut it down for years, but you can't let the cure be worse than the problem.' He's talking complete nonsense about quarantine and how bad it is to close the stock exchange while saying the quarantine is a bigger problem than the virus because he's created so many jobs and that it'll cause 'tremendous death.' ¯\(°_o)/¯
  - gwright 7y ago
    Hard to understand your point. It seems quite obvious to me that you can't shut down the world economy for any length of time without introducing enormous amounts of collateral damage (i.e. deaths). What is nonsense about that?
    - anigbrowl 7y ago
      I think you understand my point just fine.
    - HarryHirsch 7y ago
      The experts in China, South Korea and Taiwan have proven that you can get the disease under control with testing, contract tracing and serious quarantine methods. The alternative is collapsing the healthcare system because available hospital beds are full of coronavirus patients - coronavirus isn't the flu, 20 % of patients are hospitalized for three weeks. We are observing that in Italy and New York State. The President needs to stop talking generalities.
      - gwright 7y ago
        They also haven't shut down their economies, which was the point I was making. The actions you describe are not mutually exclusive to a more nuanced approach to reduced economic activity. That is, something other than economic suicide.
        enraged_camel 7y ago
        They were able to take a more nuanced and targeted approach because they got their testing infrastructure in place very quickly and made tests widely available. That way, they were able to quickly figure out who had the virus and needed to be quarantined. The USA, in stark contrast, had a gutted CDC (thanks to the hard work of the GOP to shrink the government), an abolished White House Pandemic Response office (used to be part of the national security group), and a President who first ignored and then downplayed repeated warnings from his own country's Intelligence Community because he thought it was a "hoax". That is why the time for "nuanced" approaches is past, and drastic actions are needed. You can check this website for some sobering charts: https://covidactnow.org/ https://covidactnow.org/ Regarding the economy, tell me this: do you seriously think our economy can handle millions of deaths within the span of several months?
        gwright 7y ago
  - irq11 7y ago
    I’m a died-in-the-wool liberal, and I think he’s right about that. We aren’t rationally weighing costs and benefits right now. We really should be talking more about what we’re doing to the economy, and if there are better ways to move forward.
- rbanffy 7y ago
  The only trust that should be eroded is the one on Trump who, despite his beliefs, is not an expert in anything I can imagine.
halyconWays 7y ago
President talks about the preliminary reports that HCQ is working for treating COVID-19 around the world. It might be a good treatment here. People freak out. "Preliminary doesn't mean proven!" Man self-medicates with HCQ and dies. President's fault??
- rbanffy 7y ago
  President shouldn't talk about things he clearly doesn't understand. Compare this to how Obama used to measure every single word he said.
  - refurb 7y ago
    All presidents talk about stuff they don't understand.
    - robotresearcher 7y ago
      Like this? “I like this stuff. I really get it. [...] People are really surprised I understand this stuff. Every one of these doctors said, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability.” “Anybody who wants a test will get a test, that’s the bottom line. [...] The tests are all perfect, like the letter was perfect, the transcription was perfect, right? This was not as perfect as that, but pretty good.”
    - otterley 7y ago
      Perhaps so, but some things are more important to delegate to experts than others. There's little harm in misstating the speed of light; another to suggest that a potentially hazardous drug that can be found OTC can be used to cure a virus when it cannot - and especially without dosage information.
- otterley 7y ago
  Yes, I think so. People grew up to trust institutions, and for decades they had good reason to (at least in the subjects of public health and safety). Who's to blame when after decades -- no, centuries -- we elect a leader who makes false claims that are counter to medical science -- and potentially hazardous, if followed, to the public health? The victim, or the authority? I know which party I blame.

cameronbrown 7y ago

I know you've got a point, but I genuinely can't tell which side you're having a go at.

thomasahle 7y ago
Does it have to be one or the other?

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago

Would have the man consumed the chloroquine if not for Trump broadcasting it? I'm willing to entertain both yes or no to this question, but I'm going to guess the gentlemen didn't know based off the scientific literature, but rather, the daily press briefings. And that differentiation does matter.

ModernMech 7y ago
According to the wife of the deceased, they took it after hearing from the "President and his buddies" that it was safe and "pretty much a cure" "We saw Trump on TV -- every channel -- & all of his buddies and that this was safe," she said. "Trump kept saying it was basically pretty much a cure." https://twitter.com/HeidiNBC/status/1242238268277755905 https://twitter.com/HeidiNBC/status/1242238268277755905 NBC: "Did you at any point hear that the FDA had not approved of it for coronavirus purposes or--?" AZ Woman: "Yeah. But you know they kept saying that it was approved for other things...Trump kept saying it was basically pretty much a cure." https://twitter.com/VaughnHillyard/status/1242254717696094208 https://twitter.com/VaughnHillyard/status/124225471769609420...

mulmen 7y ago

I don't see how this is political or harmful. It's a valid criticism of the president based purely on his own actions and their obvious consequences with no mention of party.

pbreit 7y ago
The main reason chloroquine is getting criticism is because Trump mentioned. This is utterly insane.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

NicoJuicy 7y ago

Doesn't mean he is wrong though, the transcript is mentioned below.

rblatz 7y ago

So this isn’t a helpful tone. You are politicizing this, the FDA doesn’t just trust poorly done studies and common sense, this is why we didn’t approve Thalidomide when it was widely considered safe. Additionally you are responding to an article about people who took the drug to treat Covid-19. Peoples lives are at stake on both sides, a politician with no medical training should know better than to run his mouth about something he knows nothing about.

jdminhbg 7y ago
> Additionally you are responding to an article about people who took the drug to treat Covid-19. No, they did not. They took an aquarium cleaning chemical with a similar name.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  Looks like they weren't alone: https://nypost.com/2020/03/19/sales-of-fish-tank-additive-skyrocket-after-studies-say-it-could-treat-coronavirus/ https://nypost.com/2020/03/19/sales-of-fish-tank-additive-sk...
jussij 7y ago
The FDA also makes mistakes. For example they total stuffed it up with their handling of Oxycontin: https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime/2018/07/13/purdue-justifies-pushing-oxycontin-citing-fda-rules-helped-write/777802002/ https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime/2018/07/13/purdue-...

jacobwilliamroy 7y ago

Yes panic and react. Yes, you are in the correct state of mind for crisis response. Yes. /sarcasm

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

et2o 7y ago

There is NOT good RCT evidence for the efficacy of chloroquine for COVID —— Medical Professional Stop acting like there is. It’s insane at this point. It might work, but frankly it’s unlikely given the history of chloroquine’s failures as an antiviral.

pbreit 7y ago
There is...both in vitro and in vivo. The pushback on chloroquine is completely insane. It's a 90 year old, well-understood drug used safely by millions with mild side effects.
- et2o 7y ago
  Sorry, this is just not true. The in-vitro results for chloroquine as an antiviral have been positive for many viruses, but it has never worked out in RCTs. Claiming there is good evidence from in-vivo studies is scientifically illiterate. Please post links to well-done RCTs if you believe they exist. There is a reason the WHO is running a 5-arm clinical trial for COVID. Edit: Your response to me literally says “In-Vitro” in the title. Edit 2: “There is absolutely evidence” ... But no links. No, sorry, you are still just wrong.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - pbreit 7y ago
    There is absolutely evidence of effectiveness against COVID-19 in humans from China, South Korea & France.
    - et2o 7y ago
      Please let me and the CDC know of these well-conducted trials of chloroquine for COVID. I take it you are not familiar with epidemiology, clinical evaluation of drug efficacy, or medical statistics. That’s fine! No one is saying you need to be. But you shouldn’t be extremely confident of your conclusions when experts are telling you that you’re wrong. The French chloroquine+azithromycin trial was terrible and no one in the medical world believes it. There’s a reason no respectable journal would publish it. SIX of the people in the C+A arm died and were removed from the analysis, which is absurd. The outcome was viral titers, which were different for different arms. Just maddening.