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I hope we can get to the point of social pushback on the word "meditation" as far too vague. There are so many different kinds, and some take completely contrad

I hope we can get to the point of social pushback on the word "meditation" as far too vague. There are so many different kinds, and some take completely contradictory approaches. For example, existentialist "now"-based sensory meditation vs. visualization-based meditation. And that's just one of many dichotomies. Not that I object to meditation by a long shot--it's just such rich world of alternatives and people deserve to know about that.

derision 7y ago
At this point I see it as the mental equivalent of "exercise". There's so many different kinds of exercise, for many different goals. The same thing goes for mediation
- root_axis 7y ago
  > At this point I see it as the mental equivalent of "exercise". Is it though? We can at least all agree on the definition of exercise, not so with meditation. Without a common definition, I'm not sure what kind of empirical claims can be made about meditation.
  - ses1984 7y ago
    >We can at least all agree on the definition of exercise Oh really.
    - maerF0x0 7y ago
      I think the real issue is that exercise, being a physical thing is much easier to observe and parameterize. How many miles do you run on a flat treadmill? How high of Heart BPM? How much does the individual weigh? What movement is done, for how many reps and what weight? Now how does one parameterize the intensity/duration of a meditation session? And does it, like exercise, depend on the existing adaptations of the individual?
      - eternauta3k 7y ago
        Frequency and duration of mind-wandering Kinds of distractions (subtle vs gross) How much detail is perceived of the meditation object Is the mind one-pointed Are there gross physical sensations, or only subtle (like your body is a point cloud) Are there intense, or subtle, pleasant sensations through the body Are there constrictions in the body What is the nature, frequency and intensity of thoughts Is there a sensation of being a knower/subject Stage in the Progress of Insight ( https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/ https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight... ) Which Jhana ( https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iii-the-samatha-jhanas/27-the-concentration-states-shamatha-jhanas/ https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iii-the-sa... ) etc, etc. Different traditions would be interested in different aspects of your experience, though.
        maerF0x0 7y ago
        Ok, thats a good list for self reflection, but how do you instrument that besides "surveys"? IMO the best things are the brain imaging technologies, but I suppose that's far too expensive to research right now?
    - root_axis 7y ago
      Yes.
    - OJFord 7y ago
      Elevating heart rate through physical activity? (Of course walking won't raise it as much as pumping iron will, but they both will, and they're both exercise.)
      - jakeinspace 7y ago
        That's cardiovascular exercise. Training for muscle growth and/or central nervous system activity is entirely different.
        OJFord 7y ago
        Training for muscle growth will raise your HR. It's not the goal, but it will happen.
    - staticassertion 7y ago
      It's at least not as wide varied as "One type of exercise is lying perfectly still in bed" and "Another is sprinting and lifting weights". To me, that's the range of definitions that meditation has. I have heard that meditation should be thinking of nothing, I have heard that meditation should be reflection on the past, I have heard that meditation should be free-form thinking, or focused on the present. This range is, to me, roughly equivalent to "meditation is basically anything, usually (but not always) involving some quite though process".
    - hombre_fatal 7y ago
      99.9% of people will consider something done to specifically raise your heart rate or strain your muscles as exercise. That 0.1% is just for the HN contrarian who will invent a different understanding that nobody has. Meditation is completely nebulous, ranging from sitting down indian-style for 15 minutes to pseudoscience chakra bullshit that induces euphoria and cures diseases. When people say they are going to exercise, you know what they are going to do. When they say they're going to meditate, it really could be anything. It is a real suitcase word.
      - chc 7y ago
        I don't find this all that persuasive. For one, I'm not convinced that "pseudoscience chakra bullshit" isn't meditation, even though it obviously doesn't work the way those people say it does. There are also people who view exercise in an unscientific way or believe it will have unrealistic benefits, but that doesn't make exercise nebulous. To my understanding, we have done brain imaging on meditators and can see that the practice is reflected the brain, so just like you'd define exercise as something that strains a muscle, you might define meditation as something that induces a meditative brain state. I think you might be confusing lack of visibility, or difficulty of measurement, with indefinability.
      - eeZah7Ux 7y ago
        > 99.9% of people will consider something done to specifically raise your heart rate or strain your muscles as exercise ...and a lot of people would include slow, gentle stretching in the category > Meditation is completely nebulous It can be nebulous to you. To other people sport can be nebulous and meditation a well understood domain.
      - Scarblac 7y ago
        That description is sufficient but not necessary. There are lots of forms of exercise that are not done specifically to raise heart rate. I'd say most.
  - oarabbus_ 7y ago
    >We can at least all agree on the definition of exercise Is it something that increases your heart rate? Surely playing video games or watching a scary movie is not exercise. Does it require one to walk or run around, i.e. ambulation of the lower limbs? Sit-ups and push-ups are probably exercise but don't require this. Can you make empirical claims about exercise when one person is deadlifting 350lbs and the other is running 10 miles a day?
    - manmal 7y ago
      Physical exercise I would define as moving a body part.
    - root_axis 7y ago
      Here's the dictionary definition I think is relevant to the discussion: bodily exertion for the sake of developing and maintaining physical fitness So video games and scary movies wouldn't count whereas sit-ups and push-ups would. Science can tell us the types of "bodily exertion" that contribute to "developing and maintaining physical fitness", that's how we can know what counts and what doesn't. > Can you make empirical claims about exercise when one person is deadlifting 350lbs and the other is running 10 miles a day? If you control for diet you absolutely can.
      - oarabbus_ 7y ago
        >bodily exertion for the sake of developing and maintaining physical fitness I don't think I agree with that definition of exercise. Bodily exertion for any other sake (running from a wild animal, from a threatening person, towards an individual in need of help etc) is still exercise. There is not a requirement that it must be for the sake of developing fitness. >If you control for diet you absolutely can. Well, no, that's not quite true. From my examples above, distance running is a form of cardiovascular exercise which has benefits such as stimulating the release of chemicals like BDNF, which tend have positive neurological effects. There are, obviously, also significant cardiovascular benefits - increased VO2 max, lower resting heartrate, etc. On the other hand, deadlifting heavy weights results in major growth of the musculoskeletal system, bone density, and other benefits, but causes little benefit to cardiovasculr or neurological function. Cardio and strength training are two entirely different beasts in the types of empirical claims you can make about the benefits they bring.
  - RuleOfBirds 7y ago
    I'd say by any definition of "We can at least all agree on a definition" that I'd accept, we can either all agree on the definition of both or neither. If both, we're discussing this in a context that prefers practicality and meaningful discourse. If neither, we're discussing in a context that prefers pedantry and academic hogwash. Otherwise, if one but not the other, maybe we're getting the worst of both worlds ️
    - root_axis 7y ago
      > I'd say by any definition of "We can at least all agree on a definition" that I'd accept, we can either all agree on the definition of both or neither. It's a turn of phrase, I don't mean that literally all people will always agree on the definition of the word, I mean, practically speaking, outside of "pedantry" and "academic hogwash". I mean the scientific definition with empirical outcomes.
qiguai 7y ago
Hope meditation never gets any sort of pushback as it is so maleable and should be embraced and not sublabeled.
- throw1234651234 7y ago
  That's like saying "Exercise should be embraced and not sublabelled". Imagine just telling people "exercise" and them having no idea whether they should lift weights, run, swim, or stretch. "Meditation" is a vague hazy concept to most of the population that have no idea how to get started or what the benefits are. So, imo, you are absolutely wrong. It should definitely be broken up. edit: Me being one of them. I have a hazy understanding of focal meditation (whether breath, clock ticking, whatever) and what it's supposed to accomplish. Other types of meditation are absolutely confusing to me. E.g. "visualization" - visualize what, for how long, how clear is it supposed to be, what are the benefits? edit2: You are focusing on "push back", I am focusing on what the original poster said - meditation needs to be better defined.
  - qiguai 7y ago
    Well pushback is a negative or unfavourable reaction or response. If I'm absolutely wrong you then hope meditation gets unfavourable reactions or responses? Curious why you think what most would consider a positive and healthy thing as worthy of pushback? What does meditation do to deserve this pushback?
    - lukebitts 7y ago
      They want pushback on the word, not the concept
  - beatgammit 7y ago
    I think people have overcomplicated meditation. At it's most basic, it's about clearing your mind and practicing keeping it clear over some interval. There are a lot of ways to do that, and lots of accessories, but they mostly have the same goal. I really liked the way one Zen Buddhist put it: just sit. Don't think about something else, don't focus on passing thoughts, and don't push away passing thoughts, but you may observe them. The point of having a focal point (breath, a fixed point in front of you, an unfixed point) is mostly to give you something that's not distracting to focus on when you get distracted by a passing thought. That same master gave very specific guidelines on posture and whatnot, but at the same time he said to not worry about doing things wrong, they're just there to help you stay comfortable during a meditation session. If you really want to give it a try, find a comfy position (not laying down, you might fall asleep), focus on something (feeling of your breath, an uninteresting point in front of you, etc), and try to avoid focusing on anything else, returning to the point you picked when you inevitably fail. It's surprisingly difficult, and you immediately get goals (sit for X minutes without distractions). If you like, pick up a book (I liked Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind), or better yet, go to a class, but that's really not necessary to just get started.
nprateem 7y ago
Don't confuse the road with the destination. They may look different on the surface but they should be taking people to the same brain states.
- mbrock 7y ago
  Why?
  - nprateem 7y ago
    Why what? Why not to confuse multiple roads leading to the same destination as going to different places?!? Because they all go to the same place!
    - kruuuder 7y ago
      Different types of meditation actually have very different outcomes. This is well researched. If you want to dive into the topic, I can recommend the book "Altered Traits".
- root_axis 7y ago
  > They may look different on the surface but they should be taking people to the same brain states That seems to be the crux of the problem though... how do we know?
  - crazynick4 7y ago
    Practice
- make3 7y ago
  citation needed. this is about making it (medical) science, please don't make claims without anything to back it up.
- proverbialbunny 7y ago
  This is not actually the case though. There are three primary or classical types of meditation and most kinds of meditation bridge off of that, all with different experiences, goals, and results. 1) Concentration meditation, like breath meditation. This increases concentration and mindfulness increasing awareness so one can notice subtle details they could not before, most notably the causal relationship within mental states. 2) Insight meditation, like noting meditation. These kinds of meditation are used with the teachings to get enlightened, but ones mindfulness and awareness must be high before being able to yield any fruit. 3) Metta meditation. It's where you wish for good things to yourself and others. This can help cultivate positive psychological states like metta (loving kindness) and compassion. 4) Zazen, which is technically a kind of concentration meditation, is a kind of meditation where you copy the posture of the teacher in front of you mirroring their movements rounding out breathing patterns and what not. It's often a do for nothing good for nothings meditation. And more...

derision 7y ago

At this point I see it as the mental equivalent of "exercise". There's so many different kinds of exercise, for many different goals. The same thing goes for mediation

root_axis 7y ago
> At this point I see it as the mental equivalent of "exercise". Is it though? We can at least all agree on the definition of exercise, not so with meditation. Without a common definition, I'm not sure what kind of empirical claims can be made about meditation.
- ses1984 7y ago
  >We can at least all agree on the definition of exercise Oh really.
  - maerF0x0 7y ago
    I think the real issue is that exercise, being a physical thing is much easier to observe and parameterize. How many miles do you run on a flat treadmill? How high of Heart BPM? How much does the individual weigh? What movement is done, for how many reps and what weight? Now how does one parameterize the intensity/duration of a meditation session? And does it, like exercise, depend on the existing adaptations of the individual?
    - eternauta3k 7y ago
      Frequency and duration of mind-wandering Kinds of distractions (subtle vs gross) How much detail is perceived of the meditation object Is the mind one-pointed Are there gross physical sensations, or only subtle (like your body is a point cloud) Are there intense, or subtle, pleasant sensations through the body Are there constrictions in the body What is the nature, frequency and intensity of thoughts Is there a sensation of being a knower/subject Stage in the Progress of Insight ( https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/ https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight... ) Which Jhana ( https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iii-the-samatha-jhanas/27-the-concentration-states-shamatha-jhanas/ https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iii-the-sa... ) etc, etc. Different traditions would be interested in different aspects of your experience, though.
      - maerF0x0 7y ago
        Ok, thats a good list for self reflection, but how do you instrument that besides "surveys"? IMO the best things are the brain imaging technologies, but I suppose that's far too expensive to research right now?
  - root_axis 7y ago
    Yes.
  - OJFord 7y ago
    Elevating heart rate through physical activity? (Of course walking won't raise it as much as pumping iron will, but they both will, and they're both exercise.)
    - jakeinspace 7y ago
      That's cardiovascular exercise. Training for muscle growth and/or central nervous system activity is entirely different.
      - OJFord 7y ago
        Training for muscle growth will raise your HR. It's not the goal, but it will happen.
  - staticassertion 7y ago
    It's at least not as wide varied as "One type of exercise is lying perfectly still in bed" and "Another is sprinting and lifting weights". To me, that's the range of definitions that meditation has. I have heard that meditation should be thinking of nothing, I have heard that meditation should be reflection on the past, I have heard that meditation should be free-form thinking, or focused on the present. This range is, to me, roughly equivalent to "meditation is basically anything, usually (but not always) involving some quite though process".
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    99.9% of people will consider something done to specifically raise your heart rate or strain your muscles as exercise. That 0.1% is just for the HN contrarian who will invent a different understanding that nobody has. Meditation is completely nebulous, ranging from sitting down indian-style for 15 minutes to pseudoscience chakra bullshit that induces euphoria and cures diseases. When people say they are going to exercise, you know what they are going to do. When they say they're going to meditate, it really could be anything. It is a real suitcase word.
    - chc 7y ago
      I don't find this all that persuasive. For one, I'm not convinced that "pseudoscience chakra bullshit" isn't meditation, even though it obviously doesn't work the way those people say it does. There are also people who view exercise in an unscientific way or believe it will have unrealistic benefits, but that doesn't make exercise nebulous. To my understanding, we have done brain imaging on meditators and can see that the practice is reflected the brain, so just like you'd define exercise as something that strains a muscle, you might define meditation as something that induces a meditative brain state. I think you might be confusing lack of visibility, or difficulty of measurement, with indefinability.
    - eeZah7Ux 7y ago
      > 99.9% of people will consider something done to specifically raise your heart rate or strain your muscles as exercise ...and a lot of people would include slow, gentle stretching in the category > Meditation is completely nebulous It can be nebulous to you. To other people sport can be nebulous and meditation a well understood domain.
    - Scarblac 7y ago
      That description is sufficient but not necessary. There are lots of forms of exercise that are not done specifically to raise heart rate. I'd say most.
- oarabbus_ 7y ago
  >We can at least all agree on the definition of exercise Is it something that increases your heart rate? Surely playing video games or watching a scary movie is not exercise. Does it require one to walk or run around, i.e. ambulation of the lower limbs? Sit-ups and push-ups are probably exercise but don't require this. Can you make empirical claims about exercise when one person is deadlifting 350lbs and the other is running 10 miles a day?
  - manmal 7y ago
    Physical exercise I would define as moving a body part.
  - root_axis 7y ago
    Here's the dictionary definition I think is relevant to the discussion: bodily exertion for the sake of developing and maintaining physical fitness So video games and scary movies wouldn't count whereas sit-ups and push-ups would. Science can tell us the types of "bodily exertion" that contribute to "developing and maintaining physical fitness", that's how we can know what counts and what doesn't. > Can you make empirical claims about exercise when one person is deadlifting 350lbs and the other is running 10 miles a day? If you control for diet you absolutely can.
    - oarabbus_ 7y ago
      >bodily exertion for the sake of developing and maintaining physical fitness I don't think I agree with that definition of exercise. Bodily exertion for any other sake (running from a wild animal, from a threatening person, towards an individual in need of help etc) is still exercise. There is not a requirement that it must be for the sake of developing fitness. >If you control for diet you absolutely can. Well, no, that's not quite true. From my examples above, distance running is a form of cardiovascular exercise which has benefits such as stimulating the release of chemicals like BDNF, which tend have positive neurological effects. There are, obviously, also significant cardiovascular benefits - increased VO2 max, lower resting heartrate, etc. On the other hand, deadlifting heavy weights results in major growth of the musculoskeletal system, bone density, and other benefits, but causes little benefit to cardiovasculr or neurological function. Cardio and strength training are two entirely different beasts in the types of empirical claims you can make about the benefits they bring.
- RuleOfBirds 7y ago
  I'd say by any definition of "We can at least all agree on a definition" that I'd accept, we can either all agree on the definition of both or neither. If both, we're discussing this in a context that prefers practicality and meaningful discourse. If neither, we're discussing in a context that prefers pedantry and academic hogwash. Otherwise, if one but not the other, maybe we're getting the worst of both worlds ️
  - root_axis 7y ago
    > I'd say by any definition of "We can at least all agree on a definition" that I'd accept, we can either all agree on the definition of both or neither. It's a turn of phrase, I don't mean that literally all people will always agree on the definition of the word, I mean, practically speaking, outside of "pedantry" and "academic hogwash". I mean the scientific definition with empirical outcomes.

qiguai 7y ago

Hope meditation never gets any sort of pushback as it is so maleable and should be embraced and not sublabeled.

throw1234651234 7y ago
That's like saying "Exercise should be embraced and not sublabelled". Imagine just telling people "exercise" and them having no idea whether they should lift weights, run, swim, or stretch. "Meditation" is a vague hazy concept to most of the population that have no idea how to get started or what the benefits are. So, imo, you are absolutely wrong. It should definitely be broken up. edit: Me being one of them. I have a hazy understanding of focal meditation (whether breath, clock ticking, whatever) and what it's supposed to accomplish. Other types of meditation are absolutely confusing to me. E.g. "visualization" - visualize what, for how long, how clear is it supposed to be, what are the benefits? edit2: You are focusing on "push back", I am focusing on what the original poster said - meditation needs to be better defined.
- qiguai 7y ago
  Well pushback is a negative or unfavourable reaction or response. If I'm absolutely wrong you then hope meditation gets unfavourable reactions or responses? Curious why you think what most would consider a positive and healthy thing as worthy of pushback? What does meditation do to deserve this pushback?
  - lukebitts 7y ago
    They want pushback on the word, not the concept
- beatgammit 7y ago
  I think people have overcomplicated meditation. At it's most basic, it's about clearing your mind and practicing keeping it clear over some interval. There are a lot of ways to do that, and lots of accessories, but they mostly have the same goal. I really liked the way one Zen Buddhist put it: just sit. Don't think about something else, don't focus on passing thoughts, and don't push away passing thoughts, but you may observe them. The point of having a focal point (breath, a fixed point in front of you, an unfixed point) is mostly to give you something that's not distracting to focus on when you get distracted by a passing thought. That same master gave very specific guidelines on posture and whatnot, but at the same time he said to not worry about doing things wrong, they're just there to help you stay comfortable during a meditation session. If you really want to give it a try, find a comfy position (not laying down, you might fall asleep), focus on something (feeling of your breath, an uninteresting point in front of you, etc), and try to avoid focusing on anything else, returning to the point you picked when you inevitably fail. It's surprisingly difficult, and you immediately get goals (sit for X minutes without distractions). If you like, pick up a book (I liked Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind), or better yet, go to a class, but that's really not necessary to just get started.

nprateem 7y ago

Don't confuse the road with the destination. They may look different on the surface but they should be taking people to the same brain states.

mbrock 7y ago
Why?
- nprateem 7y ago
  Why what? Why not to confuse multiple roads leading to the same destination as going to different places?!? Because they all go to the same place!
  - kruuuder 7y ago
    Different types of meditation actually have very different outcomes. This is well researched. If you want to dive into the topic, I can recommend the book "Altered Traits".
root_axis 7y ago
> They may look different on the surface but they should be taking people to the same brain states That seems to be the crux of the problem though... how do we know?
- crazynick4 7y ago
  Practice
make3 7y ago
citation needed. this is about making it (medical) science, please don't make claims without anything to back it up.
proverbialbunny 7y ago
This is not actually the case though. There are three primary or classical types of meditation and most kinds of meditation bridge off of that, all with different experiences, goals, and results. 1) Concentration meditation, like breath meditation. This increases concentration and mindfulness increasing awareness so one can notice subtle details they could not before, most notably the causal relationship within mental states. 2) Insight meditation, like noting meditation. These kinds of meditation are used with the teachings to get enlightened, but ones mindfulness and awareness must be high before being able to yield any fruit. 3) Metta meditation. It's where you wish for good things to yourself and others. This can help cultivate positive psychological states like metta (loving kindness) and compassion. 4) Zazen, which is technically a kind of concentration meditation, is a kind of meditation where you copy the posture of the teacher in front of you mirroring their movements rounding out breathing patterns and what not. It's often a do for nothing good for nothings meditation. And more...