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For some reason I never thought about using the rational and civilized behavior of people in war-torn areas of WWII (specifically the UK & US) as a response to

For some reason I never thought about using the rational and civilized behavior of people in war-torn areas of WWII (specifically the UK & US) as a response to these kinds of comments. The people then really were ok with things like rationing (mostly of certain types of materials for war use). There seems to be a large number of people who almost look forward to having their favorite (post-)apocalyptic movie/video-game becoming reality. Let's not pretend like there are not far too many people getting a minor degree of pleasure from thinking about how they will "out-maneuver" their fellow man in some sort of "apocalyptic end-game". The plethora of zombie shows, movies, and games probably does not help with this either. But, your WWII anecdote inspired me to tell these people: "be more like your grandparents who remained heroic and civilized in the face of a purely chaotic and even evil era."

overthemoon 7y ago
Couldn't agree more. I think there's a very foolish, immature, and naive impulse to fantasize about a dark future where we're fighting over scraps, but it doesn't have to be that way. Let's not start intoning darkly about the primal selfishness and animal nature of humans and instead plan to help out. It's an opportunity for everyday heroism and civility, not adolescent grindhouse survival fantasy.
- throwanem 7y ago
  Eh, give the people who say that stuff a break. Whether they understand or not that that's what they're doing, it's still nice of them to tell everyone up front that they aren't to be trusted in a dangerous situation.
- JackRabbitSlim 7y ago
  You have the privileged position of having something to lose. To a significant portion of our population, fighting over scraps is already the reality. What exactly is irrational about a kid with 300k in debt and no job hoping that a collapse could lead to a real future for himself and/or his kids?
  - gambiting 7y ago
    >>What exactly is irrational about a kid with 300k in debt and no job hoping that a collapse could lead to a real future for himself and/or his kids? For the start.....everything. No matter how much you're in debt and without a job you're still immesurably better than after actual collapse of the society. Unless your plan really is to establish yourself as some kind of warlord with guns and have others serve you. Which is about as realistic as Mad Max is. There's literally nothing rational about it, not even as a fantasy unless you're 12 and don't understand how the world works and what would actually happen if the societes collapsed in some kind of post apocalyptic scenario.
    - SereneT 7y ago
      Totally Roman civilization collapsed in britian sometime around early 5th century The next time anybody heard of central heating or plumbing on that island was roughly 1500 years later As an electrician I'm always amazed at the Wonder of how it all works, and at the blissful ignorance of many regarding just how much hard work and professional knowledge is involved in, you know such banalaties as keeping the lights on, the water running, the garbage disappearing, the shelves stocked...
  - overthemoon 7y ago
    Hold on. What I'm talking about is someone putting a gun to another person's head and taking that person's can of soup to scarf it down in the bombed out ruins of a building[1]. I'm not talking about anything else. That people are facing hardship is not a surprise to me, but we're not quite at The Road yet. As someone supporting a household with a cumulative 200k of debt, I know what the possibility of a chaotic new future feels like, believe me (and I AM privileged!) I'm specifically talking about the fantasy of blowing away armed marauders with a shotgun. We're on the edge, a job loss would be brutal to us, and I recognize that many have it even worse. I guess I'm pushing back against grim (and I believe largely baseless) cynicism about human nature. [1]Mind you, I'm talking about the United States. Yemen, Libya, Syria, many other countries graced with the interference of the US and our allies are another subject. Edited for formatting.
  - dasil003 7y ago
pinkfoot 7y ago
> remained heroic and civilized Well, except for the rapes, murders, mass internment, civilian bombing, etc. Its a nice fable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World...
- throwanem 7y ago
  We're talking about behavior on the homefront, not about the treatment of enemy civilians.
  - pinkfoot 7y ago
    You interned US citizens on other continents?
  - pinkfoot 7y ago
    I'm sure the Japanese population was also very heroic and civil to each other on the homefront. Do you see the problem here?
    - throwanem 7y ago
      Yes, I suppose I do. I'd like to hope that we'd do better this time, considering especially that there is even less basis now, for identifying any segment of the US population as potentially treasonous, than there was then. But that seems like an awfully bold claim to make, in a country that's operating internment camps right now.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - bosie 7y ago
    how do the concentration camps in most european/russian/US countries factor into this? or do you consider those ethnicities/races as 'enemy civilians'?
disease 7y ago
I'm from a rural area and have noted an unfortunate overlap in doomsday preppers/survivalists and white nationalists/christian nationalists. This knowledge, for me at least, tends to add a additional context to the "I need my guns to shoot those that would threaten my family" comments that show up on every internet comments section.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
There seems to be a large number of people who almost look forward to having their favorite (post-)apocalyptic movie/video-game becoming reality. In times of prosperous peace, most struggle is crazy making pecking order BS. Are you doing better than your neighbor? Who is number one on this list? What does it pay? During times when the world at large isn't trying to kill us all, hell is other people. Hell is being at the bottom of the heap because society will make sure that's a terrible place to be even if there is no objective reason that it needs to be. During a real crisis, that crap tends to mostly drop away. Suddenly, people with money are willing to share it with those who have less those with less aren't treated like they must not be trying hard enough and clearly don't deserve better. We revert to absolute measures rather than relative measures. Instead of "Do I have more or less than other people?" we ask "Did I get what I actually needed today?" It's very rare for big change that kills off the most awful aspects of our lives to come some big positive change. It's almost always a disaster that leads to such. Those dystopian fantasies very often include the idea of a sense of community and pulling together in the aftermath that is generally lacking in the lives of most modern people in developed countries. We seem to be unable to imagine creating a sense of community in the face of plenty. Longing for community seems to be a primary reason to have such fantasies.
gherkinnn 7y ago
> There seems to be a large number of people who almost look forward to having their favorite (post-)apocalyptic movie/video-game becoming reality. Which might be amusing as a thought experiment. But as soon as you need antibiotics or want your shit to magically disappear down a hole in your house, you want to go back. Needless to say, chances are one gets nastily bludgeoned with rebar over a packet of pasta. Nothing romantic there.

overthemoon 7y ago

Couldn't agree more. I think there's a very foolish, immature, and naive impulse to fantasize about a dark future where we're fighting over scraps, but it doesn't have to be that way. Let's not start intoning darkly about the primal selfishness and animal nature of humans and instead plan to help out. It's an opportunity for everyday heroism and civility, not adolescent grindhouse survival fantasy.

throwanem 7y ago
Eh, give the people who say that stuff a break. Whether they understand or not that that's what they're doing, it's still nice of them to tell everyone up front that they aren't to be trusted in a dangerous situation.
JackRabbitSlim 7y ago
You have the privileged position of having something to lose. To a significant portion of our population, fighting over scraps is already the reality. What exactly is irrational about a kid with 300k in debt and no job hoping that a collapse could lead to a real future for himself and/or his kids?
- gambiting 7y ago
  >>What exactly is irrational about a kid with 300k in debt and no job hoping that a collapse could lead to a real future for himself and/or his kids? For the start.....everything. No matter how much you're in debt and without a job you're still immesurably better than after actual collapse of the society. Unless your plan really is to establish yourself as some kind of warlord with guns and have others serve you. Which is about as realistic as Mad Max is. There's literally nothing rational about it, not even as a fantasy unless you're 12 and don't understand how the world works and what would actually happen if the societes collapsed in some kind of post apocalyptic scenario.
  - SereneT 7y ago
    Totally Roman civilization collapsed in britian sometime around early 5th century The next time anybody heard of central heating or plumbing on that island was roughly 1500 years later As an electrician I'm always amazed at the Wonder of how it all works, and at the blissful ignorance of many regarding just how much hard work and professional knowledge is involved in, you know such banalaties as keeping the lights on, the water running, the garbage disappearing, the shelves stocked...
- overthemoon 7y ago
  Hold on. What I'm talking about is someone putting a gun to another person's head and taking that person's can of soup to scarf it down in the bombed out ruins of a building[1]. I'm not talking about anything else. That people are facing hardship is not a surprise to me, but we're not quite at The Road yet. As someone supporting a household with a cumulative 200k of debt, I know what the possibility of a chaotic new future feels like, believe me (and I AM privileged!) I'm specifically talking about the fantasy of blowing away armed marauders with a shotgun. We're on the edge, a job loss would be brutal to us, and I recognize that many have it even worse. I guess I'm pushing back against grim (and I believe largely baseless) cynicism about human nature. [1]Mind you, I'm talking about the United States. Yemen, Libya, Syria, many other countries graced with the interference of the US and our allies are another subject. Edited for formatting.
- dasil003 7y ago

pinkfoot 7y ago

> remained heroic and civilized Well, except for the rapes, murders, mass internment, civilian bombing, etc. Its a nice fable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World...

throwanem 7y ago
We're talking about behavior on the homefront, not about the treatment of enemy civilians.
- pinkfoot 7y ago
  You interned US citizens on other continents?
- pinkfoot 7y ago
  I'm sure the Japanese population was also very heroic and civil to each other on the homefront. Do you see the problem here?
  - throwanem 7y ago
    Yes, I suppose I do. I'd like to hope that we'd do better this time, considering especially that there is even less basis now, for identifying any segment of the US population as potentially treasonous, than there was then. But that seems like an awfully bold claim to make, in a country that's operating internment camps right now.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- bosie 7y ago
  how do the concentration camps in most european/russian/US countries factor into this? or do you consider those ethnicities/races as 'enemy civilians'?

disease 7y ago

I'm from a rural area and have noted an unfortunate overlap in doomsday preppers/survivalists and white nationalists/christian nationalists. This knowledge, for me at least, tends to add a additional context to the "I need my guns to shoot those that would threaten my family" comments that show up on every internet comments section.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

There seems to be a large number of people who almost look forward to having their favorite (post-)apocalyptic movie/video-game becoming reality. In times of prosperous peace, most struggle is crazy making pecking order BS. Are you doing better than your neighbor? Who is number one on this list? What does it pay? During times when the world at large isn't trying to kill us all, hell is other people. Hell is being at the bottom of the heap because society will make sure that's a terrible place to be even if there is no objective reason that it needs to be. During a real crisis, that crap tends to mostly drop away. Suddenly, people with money are willing to share it with those who have less those with less aren't treated like they must not be trying hard enough and clearly don't deserve better. We revert to absolute measures rather than relative measures. Instead of "Do I have more or less than other people?" we ask "Did I get what I actually needed today?" It's very rare for big change that kills off the most awful aspects of our lives to come some big positive change. It's almost always a disaster that leads to such. Those dystopian fantasies very often include the idea of a sense of community and pulling together in the aftermath that is generally lacking in the lives of most modern people in developed countries. We seem to be unable to imagine creating a sense of community in the face of plenty. Longing for community seems to be a primary reason to have such fantasies.

gherkinnn 7y ago

> There seems to be a large number of people who almost look forward to having their favorite (post-)apocalyptic movie/video-game becoming reality. Which might be amusing as a thought experiment. But as soon as you need antibiotics or want your shit to magically disappear down a hole in your house, you want to go back. Needless to say, chances are one gets nastily bludgeoned with rebar over a packet of pasta. Nothing romantic there.