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" I've also found that programs seem more likely to work on their first run, but haven't made any effort to quantify that." Had the same experience with Modula-

" I've also found that programs seem more likely to work on their first run, but haven't made any effort to quantify that." Had the same experience with Modula-2, once I got all the compile errors cleared. I think there is a real need for the current generation of business programmers to start focusing more on safety and rigor as they transition into IoT. For instance, I don't see most programmers I've worked with capable or will to use enough rigor to make autonomous cars safe. All these programmers have generally been slinging java for years, without even much effort to exposed themselves to other languages unless there is a business requirement to do so. So the concern I have with Rust (as a newbie) is it isn't consumable enough to have it's value adopted by most business programmers out there, and I've wondered if Ada would serve that role better because it seems generally easier to grok percentage wise.

batter 7y ago
Whatever bad things you see in this world - it's done by java developers. Go, scala, kotlin, JavaScript, python developers would never do anything as bad as java developers. I see that a lot of people stick to that mantra.
- yaktubi 7y ago
  Huh, JavaScript developers? They do something bad by default: loop in a million dependencies from 3rd party modules!
- jksmith 7y ago
  Not suggesting that it's the language. It's the language that is popular for large-organization commodity programming. Agency people who want well paying jobs with not necessarily a lot of interest in software development itself.
- barrkel 7y ago
  Java is used on projects with more scale (business process complexity) than the other languages you list, though. There are reasons for the things that are done in the Java community. We might not like the result, but there are reasons, and most of them have to do with scale and process at scale. There are other ways to build out scale, but they may require different kinds of organizations to build them, with a different mix of people. Big Java projects tend to be structured to make efficient use of developers with 0-5 years of experience, because at scale those developers are reasonably easy to hire. Those developers need to colour inside the lines (=> framework, we'll call you, follow the patterns, don't invent abstractions), create code which can be tested in isolation (=> inversion of control), and have their output glued into position (=> dependency injection) in a much larger solution. Most of the structure of the Java ecosystem follows from this.
pjmlp 7y ago
You should watch NVidias webminar about picking up Ada for their critical software systems, that was part of their reasoning. https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2019/02/05/adacore-secure-autonomous-driving/ https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2019/02/05/adacore-secure-auto... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZSSyWlsb28 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZSSyWlsb28
- jksmith 7y ago
  Thanks for sharing. Interesting stuff, esp since I consult for Ford Motor. I've always been a fan of DbC since introduced by Eiffel, and wrote a clunky but workable DbC module in FPC.

batter 7y ago

Whatever bad things you see in this world - it's done by java developers. Go, scala, kotlin, JavaScript, python developers would never do anything as bad as java developers. I see that a lot of people stick to that mantra.

yaktubi 7y ago
Huh, JavaScript developers? They do something bad by default: loop in a million dependencies from 3rd party modules!
jksmith 7y ago
Not suggesting that it's the language. It's the language that is popular for large-organization commodity programming. Agency people who want well paying jobs with not necessarily a lot of interest in software development itself.
barrkel 7y ago
Java is used on projects with more scale (business process complexity) than the other languages you list, though. There are reasons for the things that are done in the Java community. We might not like the result, but there are reasons, and most of them have to do with scale and process at scale. There are other ways to build out scale, but they may require different kinds of organizations to build them, with a different mix of people. Big Java projects tend to be structured to make efficient use of developers with 0-5 years of experience, because at scale those developers are reasonably easy to hire. Those developers need to colour inside the lines (=> framework, we'll call you, follow the patterns, don't invent abstractions), create code which can be tested in isolation (=> inversion of control), and have their output glued into position (=> dependency injection) in a much larger solution. Most of the structure of the Java ecosystem follows from this.

pjmlp 7y ago

You should watch NVidias webminar about picking up Ada for their critical software systems, that was part of their reasoning. https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2019/02/05/adacore-secure-autonomous-driving/ https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2019/02/05/adacore-secure-auto... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZSSyWlsb28 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZSSyWlsb28

jksmith 7y ago
Thanks for sharing. Interesting stuff, esp since I consult for Ford Motor. I've always been a fan of DbC since introduced by Eiffel, and wrote a clunky but workable DbC module in FPC.