8 ms·

Magic: The Gathering creator Richard Garfield on 35 years of making games

148 points by atomlib 7y ago

HenryBemis 7y ago
One of the things that made me stop playing MtG is that WotC bought TSR and they killed Spellfire. I do understand that it wasn't raking £€¥$ like MtG was, but still I loved Spellfire, I still keep all my cards in dossiers in plastic sleeves and taking good care of them.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  WoTC effectively killing Netrunner made me sad too. It was a really fun game.
  - jamesgeck0 7y ago
    Yeah. The new NESI cards look great, but my local community dried up shortly after official FFG support ended.
    - JonathanMerklin 7y ago
      alasdair_ might be referring to WotC's lack of support for the 1996 Netrunner. One major expansion that really did fix a lot of things, then the poorly-distributed Classic (which had mechanics that showed great promise; facedown runner cards could have been a huge boon for bluffing complexity on that end of the board), and that was pretty much it.
- onefuncman 7y ago
  That was 1997, you hold a pretty serious grudge...?
  - airstrike 7y ago
    This is both really funny and really true. I remember being incredibly upset that all my friends were abandoning Spellfire to play MtG – I ultimately realized the latter was the better (more complex, strategic) of the two games, but playing 3v3 Spellfire games was absolute chaotic fun and I don't think MtG was ever able to be as much casual fun as that, despite also being very good
  - HenryBemis 7y ago
    I don't lose sleep over it, but every time I look at my (5) dossiers I remember how much I enjoyed playing with friends. It would be great to build a Spellfire community..
big_chungus 7y ago
I just re-discovered MTG a week or two ago. I was wondering with a few friends what we could do to socialize, and as none of us are big video game guys, we decided to try playing via Cockatrice. I was able to quickly set up a server and get everyone playing; lots of fun. In case any Cockatrice developer sees this, thank you!
beefman 7y ago
Garfield is the great-great grandson of President Garfield (known for his novel proof the Pythagorean theorem, as well as his purported ability to write with both hands simultaneously... in different languages). Also, his great uncle supposedly invented the paper clip.
tobrien6 7y ago
It's too bad Valve didn't properly support or listen to players of Garfield's digital card game Artifact (which he developed for Valve). It was a huge leap forward in digital card games, involving high-level strategic play not present in Magic. The 3-lane system inspired by DOTA and the Initiative system were great innovations in the genre.
- vosper 7y ago
  It appears that Artifact is not dead: > "We ran an experiment, we got a negative result, and now we need to see if we’ve learned anything from that, so let’s try again. And that’s what [the Artifact team] have been doing and that’s what they’re getting ready to release. Based on the reaction to it, what was wrong with the product? How did we get there? Let’s fix those things and take another run at it." https://www.pcgamer.com/a-surprise-message-from-valve-hints-at-the-return-of-artifact/ https://www.pcgamer.com/a-surprise-message-from-valve-hints-...
  - Revery 7y ago
    It is dead in the sense that it failed miserably on release, has very few active players, and the upcoming changes have been reported as being called Artifact 2.0 internally
- urda 7y ago
  https://playartifact.com/news/1821083382556531528 https://playartifact.com/news/1821083382556531528 Valve is working on it still.
- softwarejosh 7y ago
  the high complexity is exactly why I and many other players did not play. compared to hearthstone and mtg the game mechanics felt forced and over complicated, not fun at all. I REALLY wanted to like it too.
  - dx87 7y ago
    And it's funny, because in this article he says that he doesn't like making digital card games because they end up being overly complicated, but that's exactly what he designed Artifact as, and even bragged about how it was going to be the most complex card game people ever played.
k__ 7y ago
I started playing MtG multiple times and hung on for 1-2 years until I needed a pause, haha. It always felt like "an old game" to me, even when I started the first time in 1996. I'm still a bit sad that I sold my cards from that time for 30€ at eBay.
dangoor 7y ago
I backed his new game Half Truth (made with Ken Jennings of Jeopardy fame) and it arrived just before social distancing kicked in. It's a fun take on a trivia game, because it's set up so that it's not so much of a binary "do you know it or not". You can definitely use some strategy in how you play. Of course, folks who do know a lot of trivia will still win. It's just that other players can still make progress, too.
masona 7y ago
Garfield, and M:tG in general, has been a huge inspiration for me over the years. Magic is such a creative system of constraints, story, card complexity, competitive ecosystems, strategy and metagaming. It also allows a really personal approach to deckbuilding, play style and fun in general. Not to mention the financial aspect of the secondary market, which is an entire field in and of itself... A lot of the lessons learned from studying the game's strategy have helped me cultivate new mental models in my approach to problem solving. At one point I even took a career break and designed a game, like Garfield says, that I wanted to play that couldn't find. The game is called Sin Rummy - a variant on Rummy based on Gandhi's seven social sins. It was tough to develop, design and produce but I was able to use a lot of intuition from playing Magic all those years to balance it. My starting design constraints: a complex game with tons of replayability that would be easy to pick up and learn, all printed within a single deck of cards. I was super happy with the end result (even if the Kickstarter didn't go nuclear as I had hoped) and still play it all the time. If anyone wants a copy, send me your address (email is on the site in my profile) and I'll mail it to you.
- mastermojo 7y ago
  Looked at your kickstarter. Very cool game! Was your plan to keep this game a single-run production? I know a friend who is in the intersection of {plays magic} and {likes game design}. I might hit you up on your offer once COVID-19 shenanigans calm down a little.
  - masona 7y ago
    Thanks for the note! I'm hoping to do a larger run at some point in the future if I can get distribution but I'm not in a hurry. Card quality is super important to me so I would rather stick to printing with USPCC, which is more expensive. Let me know if your friend is interested - I shipped 16 decks yesterday from that comment alone.
prepend 7y ago
I learned Usenet and www to buy and sell magic cards in the 90s. My first web site was to sell magic cards and selling my collection let me buy a car to drive to proper startups with W2s. In fact, I think the reason why I sought out the internet at college in 1994 was because a friend said any magic card could be bought online for $5. It’s interesting how the early magic community was so focused on the net.
airstrike 7y ago
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but since virtually all of us are in quarantine, I thought this might be an opportune time to ask for recommendations on family-friendly (think 3 generations...) board games to play while stuck at home. I really don't want to play Scrabble, Monopoly, Risk, Game of Life or Clue... but have no idea if I should go with Jaws: The Game, Settlers of Catan or Ticket to Ride EDIT: Thank you all for the great responses!
- PenguinCoder 7y ago
  Depending on the age groups, my family has had fun with the following various games: Settlers of Catan Carcassonne Clash of the Cards Codebreakers (Mastermind) Codenames Cards against humanity Chess Gin Rummy Dice games (10k, etc) Dominoes and variations
  - woodrowbarlow 7y ago
    codenames (especially the pictures variant) is _always_ popular, with almost everyone. period. they're quick 10-15 minute games, and you can usually go about 3-4 games in a session before people's interest starts to wane. the rules can fit into about three sentences. lots of team collaboration. not a lot of game theory or strategy or tactics involved, it's all wordplay. which is nice for multi-generational family game night. i've even played with people who don't speak a lot of english (with a bit of translating back and forth) and we all had a blast. best with 5-7 people, though; 3 minimum but it's not very fun unless you have at least 5.
- Revery 7y ago
  I've had great success introducing my family to Sagrada. We have a high variance of skill levels and it still keeps everyone well entertained. For a party style game, I'd recommend "A Fake Artist Goes to New York"
- danbolt 7y ago
  Modern Art is a lot of fun, and it helps kids learn about value being a product of the situation around it in some ways.
airstrike 7y ago
I still have old Magic 2013 iOS app in my OG iPad and it's one of the most fun things I can do in my spare time. I've probably spent more hours than I should playing this game over the course of the last ~20 years but I still can't get enough of it... https://apps.apple.com/us/app/magic-2013/id502588466 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/magic-2013/id502588466
pcmaffey 7y ago
I just discovered Nvidia's cloud gaming platform [1] as a way to play MTG Arena on a Mac. Works great, without having to partition my already thin hardrive... Limited booster drafts are one of my favorite things to play since forever ago. Finally found a way after a bunch of years (had tried Cockatrice, etc..) [1] https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce-now/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce-now/
- doubleunplussed 7y ago
  I play on Linux using Lutris. Worked out of the box, is pretty great.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  You can also stream with Steam Link or Steam. Virtually the same though you do need your own hardware, you are entirely free to decide what run on it (in contrast to Nvidia's platform where several large companies have removed their games).
smcg 7y ago
Big fan of Garfield and his games in general, but shout out to SpyNet which is fun and underrated.
ncfausti 7y ago
There's a large story/case study on Garfield in the book Game Design Workshop. Great resource for anyone interested in designing new games. https://www.amazon.com/Game-Design-Workshop-Playcentric-Innovative/dp/0240809742 https://www.amazon.com/Game-Design-Workshop-Playcentric-Inno...
throwaway5466 7y ago
Slightly off-topic, but if you're in quarantine and wondering how to play wondorous games of Magic, say no more: https://cockatrice.github.io/ https://cockatrice.github.io/ http://xmage.de/ http://xmage.de/ (the latter is way more buggy but has actual rule enforcement, the first is very polished but you have to do everything by hand as though it were a physical board game)
- fredoliveira 7y ago
  For people who are interested in playing MTG, their "new" windows game (MTG Arena) is a pretty decent, modern client, that lets you play for free. Supposedly it is coming to the mac soon, and rumor has it that iOS and Android are planned, but based on how the UI has evolved recently, I wouldn't hold out hope for that.
  - Fezzik 7y ago
    Totally my personal opinion, but I much prefer MTGO (Magic the Gathering Online, windows only also) as it better emulates table-top Magic. I can't handle all the animations and noises of Arena. Also, much better card/draft selection on MTGO. Not free though, but not nearly as expensive as paper Magic. I am an old fuddy-duddy.
    - risho 7y ago
      its still quite expensive though. it's great if you are looking to play the older formats. getting into legacy for 500 dollars is really nice. that said it's hard to justify buying into standard or pioneer on there. the prices are quite volatile and some of the cards are just ridiculously expensive due to the fact that everyone went over to arena. teferi, time raveler for example. it also feels bad to buy a playset of them because it's only a matter of time until they reprint them and the card tanks to 20 dollars or whatever. arena is nice because you don't have to worry about the secondary market. i would also suggest that if you turn off the sound in game that arena isn't actually all that bad. i say that as a person who's played mtgo since 2012. i agree that draft is bad on arena, but if you want to play standard I actually think it's better.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
throwaway5752 7y ago
This is such a great excuse to post this for MTG fans https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/season/24/phoenix-az/appraisals/1993-magic-the-gathering-beta-cards--201901A18/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/season/24/phoenix-az/appra... Black Lotus, Mox jewels... and the person had no idea of the value. Just an enjoyable watch that isn't worth a separate submission.
Riverheart 7y ago
Artifact might've been a flop but Keyforge has been plenty fun.
Fnoord 7y ago
I'm a bit less positive with regards to MtG. Though I have not played it for a long time (mainly did in 90s). IMO they innovated the combination of loot boxes and pay to win, which with regards to children I find especially cruel (I was a kid in 90s). The only good card game I played in recent years is Slay The Spire. Inspired by Netrunner it has a static, one time fee less than 20 EUR (buy to play), rogue like elements, unique characters with unique playstyle, and a balance between RNG/adaptation/skill. It also has a unique, simple art style which is I guess indy like. I find it daring and refreshing. Hearthstone I was enthusiastic about during beta. I quickly figured it was pay to win (or a massive grind which is IMO an excuse). Garfield and Blizzard might have made good games, and perhaps they still do. But it's also big business. I've seen a myriad of other card games on Steam. If anyone has any recommendations, I'm interested (solo or multi-player).
- andrewzah 7y ago
  > I quickly figured it was pay to win (or a massive grind which is IMO an excuse). A grindy system basically -is- pay to win for anyone who has a fulltime job and responsibilities. Good luck grinding for what you need if you only play ~30-60 mins every other day or so. I've always disliked league due to this. On top of cosmetics, I also have to purchase heroes...? I guess, or I can just play dota (which is a better game, no bias here :-)). > IMO they innovated pay to win With MTG it was entirely too expensive for our group, so we used Cockatrice to play it for free online. Commander/EDH is fun with friends. More so when you can play decks where the only limit is your creativity. However, one fun and relatively inexpensive format is booster drafts for mtg. I used to play this every once in a while at my local card shop. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_formats#Booster_Draft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_formats#B... > Hearthstone At least you can sell MtG cards. Hearthstone was manageable when it first came out, but I took a break for a while and was overwhelmed when I came back. That devolved into a soulless grind of a game unless one started spending some money on opening packs (... for each expansion). Hearthstone also made me realize I dislike trading card games in a competitive environment. I like fooling around in EDH with wonky decks with a few friends, but trying to climb the hearthstone ladder was terrible.
- r00fus 7y ago
greggman3 7y ago
I probably don't have all the facts but it's always bugged by that MTG has patented (or some rights) on similar card games and has effectively strong armed any similar and popular game into paying them a license. My understanding is that game mechanics can't be copyright protected so I don't get what they are suing over and how they have been so successful in getting fees

148 points by atomlib 7y ago

One of the things that made me stop playing MtG is that WotC bought TSR and they killed Spellfire. I do understand that it wasn't raking £€¥$ like MtG was, but still I loved Spellfire, I still keep all my cards in dossiers in plastic sleeves and taking good care of them.

alasdair_ 7y ago
WoTC effectively killing Netrunner made me sad too. It was a really fun game.
- jamesgeck0 7y ago
  Yeah. The new NESI cards look great, but my local community dried up shortly after official FFG support ended.
  - JonathanMerklin 7y ago
    alasdair_ might be referring to WotC's lack of support for the 1996 Netrunner. One major expansion that really did fix a lot of things, then the poorly-distributed Classic (which had mechanics that showed great promise; facedown runner cards could have been a huge boon for bluffing complexity on that end of the board), and that was pretty much it.
onefuncman 7y ago
That was 1997, you hold a pretty serious grudge...?
- airstrike 7y ago
  This is both really funny and really true. I remember being incredibly upset that all my friends were abandoning Spellfire to play MtG – I ultimately realized the latter was the better (more complex, strategic) of the two games, but playing 3v3 Spellfire games was absolute chaotic fun and I don't think MtG was ever able to be as much casual fun as that, despite also being very good
- HenryBemis 7y ago
  I don't lose sleep over it, but every time I look at my (5) dossiers I remember how much I enjoyed playing with friends. It would be great to build a Spellfire community..

big_chungus 7y ago

I just re-discovered MTG a week or two ago. I was wondering with a few friends what we could do to socialize, and as none of us are big video game guys, we decided to try playing via Cockatrice. I was able to quickly set up a server and get everyone playing; lots of fun. In case any Cockatrice developer sees this, thank you!

beefman 7y ago

Garfield is the great-great grandson of President Garfield (known for his novel proof the Pythagorean theorem, as well as his purported ability to write with both hands simultaneously... in different languages). Also, his great uncle supposedly invented the paper clip.

tobrien6 7y ago

It's too bad Valve didn't properly support or listen to players of Garfield's digital card game Artifact (which he developed for Valve). It was a huge leap forward in digital card games, involving high-level strategic play not present in Magic. The 3-lane system inspired by DOTA and the Initiative system were great innovations in the genre.

vosper 7y ago
It appears that Artifact is not dead: > "We ran an experiment, we got a negative result, and now we need to see if we’ve learned anything from that, so let’s try again. And that’s what [the Artifact team] have been doing and that’s what they’re getting ready to release. Based on the reaction to it, what was wrong with the product? How did we get there? Let’s fix those things and take another run at it." https://www.pcgamer.com/a-surprise-message-from-valve-hints-at-the-return-of-artifact/ https://www.pcgamer.com/a-surprise-message-from-valve-hints-...
- Revery 7y ago
  It is dead in the sense that it failed miserably on release, has very few active players, and the upcoming changes have been reported as being called Artifact 2.0 internally
urda 7y ago
https://playartifact.com/news/1821083382556531528 https://playartifact.com/news/1821083382556531528 Valve is working on it still.
softwarejosh 7y ago
the high complexity is exactly why I and many other players did not play. compared to hearthstone and mtg the game mechanics felt forced and over complicated, not fun at all. I REALLY wanted to like it too.
- dx87 7y ago
  And it's funny, because in this article he says that he doesn't like making digital card games because they end up being overly complicated, but that's exactly what he designed Artifact as, and even bragged about how it was going to be the most complex card game people ever played.

k__ 7y ago

I started playing MtG multiple times and hung on for 1-2 years until I needed a pause, haha. It always felt like "an old game" to me, even when I started the first time in 1996. I'm still a bit sad that I sold my cards from that time for 30€ at eBay.

dangoor 7y ago

I backed his new game Half Truth (made with Ken Jennings of Jeopardy fame) and it arrived just before social distancing kicked in. It's a fun take on a trivia game, because it's set up so that it's not so much of a binary "do you know it or not". You can definitely use some strategy in how you play. Of course, folks who do know a lot of trivia will still win. It's just that other players can still make progress, too.

masona 7y ago

Garfield, and M:tG in general, has been a huge inspiration for me over the years. Magic is such a creative system of constraints, story, card complexity, competitive ecosystems, strategy and metagaming. It also allows a really personal approach to deckbuilding, play style and fun in general. Not to mention the financial aspect of the secondary market, which is an entire field in and of itself... A lot of the lessons learned from studying the game's strategy have helped me cultivate new mental models in my approach to problem solving. At one point I even took a career break and designed a game, like Garfield says, that I wanted to play that couldn't find. The game is called Sin Rummy - a variant on Rummy based on Gandhi's seven social sins. It was tough to develop, design and produce but I was able to use a lot of intuition from playing Magic all those years to balance it. My starting design constraints: a complex game with tons of replayability that would be easy to pick up and learn, all printed within a single deck of cards. I was super happy with the end result (even if the Kickstarter didn't go nuclear as I had hoped) and still play it all the time. If anyone wants a copy, send me your address (email is on the site in my profile) and I'll mail it to you.

mastermojo 7y ago
Looked at your kickstarter. Very cool game! Was your plan to keep this game a single-run production? I know a friend who is in the intersection of {plays magic} and {likes game design}. I might hit you up on your offer once COVID-19 shenanigans calm down a little.
- masona 7y ago
  Thanks for the note! I'm hoping to do a larger run at some point in the future if I can get distribution but I'm not in a hurry. Card quality is super important to me so I would rather stick to printing with USPCC, which is more expensive. Let me know if your friend is interested - I shipped 16 decks yesterday from that comment alone.

prepend 7y ago

I learned Usenet and www to buy and sell magic cards in the 90s. My first web site was to sell magic cards and selling my collection let me buy a car to drive to proper startups with W2s. In fact, I think the reason why I sought out the internet at college in 1994 was because a friend said any magic card could be bought online for $5. It’s interesting how the early magic community was so focused on the net.

airstrike 7y ago

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but since virtually all of us are in quarantine, I thought this might be an opportune time to ask for recommendations on family-friendly (think 3 generations...) board games to play while stuck at home. I really don't want to play Scrabble, Monopoly, Risk, Game of Life or Clue... but have no idea if I should go with Jaws: The Game, Settlers of Catan or Ticket to Ride EDIT: Thank you all for the great responses!

PenguinCoder 7y ago
Depending on the age groups, my family has had fun with the following various games: Settlers of Catan Carcassonne Clash of the Cards Codebreakers (Mastermind) Codenames Cards against humanity Chess Gin Rummy Dice games (10k, etc) Dominoes and variations
- woodrowbarlow 7y ago
  codenames (especially the pictures variant) is _always_ popular, with almost everyone. period. they're quick 10-15 minute games, and you can usually go about 3-4 games in a session before people's interest starts to wane. the rules can fit into about three sentences. lots of team collaboration. not a lot of game theory or strategy or tactics involved, it's all wordplay. which is nice for multi-generational family game night. i've even played with people who don't speak a lot of english (with a bit of translating back and forth) and we all had a blast. best with 5-7 people, though; 3 minimum but it's not very fun unless you have at least 5.
Revery 7y ago
I've had great success introducing my family to Sagrada. We have a high variance of skill levels and it still keeps everyone well entertained. For a party style game, I'd recommend "A Fake Artist Goes to New York"
danbolt 7y ago
Modern Art is a lot of fun, and it helps kids learn about value being a product of the situation around it in some ways.

airstrike 7y ago

I still have old Magic 2013 iOS app in my OG iPad and it's one of the most fun things I can do in my spare time. I've probably spent more hours than I should playing this game over the course of the last ~20 years but I still can't get enough of it... https://apps.apple.com/us/app/magic-2013/id502588466 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/magic-2013/id502588466

pcmaffey 7y ago

I just discovered Nvidia's cloud gaming platform [1] as a way to play MTG Arena on a Mac. Works great, without having to partition my already thin hardrive... Limited booster drafts are one of my favorite things to play since forever ago. Finally found a way after a bunch of years (had tried Cockatrice, etc..) [1] https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce-now/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce-now/

doubleunplussed 7y ago
I play on Linux using Lutris. Worked out of the box, is pretty great.
Fnoord 7y ago
You can also stream with Steam Link or Steam. Virtually the same though you do need your own hardware, you are entirely free to decide what run on it (in contrast to Nvidia's platform where several large companies have removed their games).

smcg 7y ago

Big fan of Garfield and his games in general, but shout out to SpyNet which is fun and underrated.

ncfausti 7y ago

There's a large story/case study on Garfield in the book Game Design Workshop. Great resource for anyone interested in designing new games. https://www.amazon.com/Game-Design-Workshop-Playcentric-Innovative/dp/0240809742 https://www.amazon.com/Game-Design-Workshop-Playcentric-Inno...

throwaway5466 7y ago

Slightly off-topic, but if you're in quarantine and wondering how to play wondorous games of Magic, say no more: https://cockatrice.github.io/ https://cockatrice.github.io/ http://xmage.de/ http://xmage.de/ (the latter is way more buggy but has actual rule enforcement, the first is very polished but you have to do everything by hand as though it were a physical board game)

fredoliveira 7y ago
For people who are interested in playing MTG, their "new" windows game (MTG Arena) is a pretty decent, modern client, that lets you play for free. Supposedly it is coming to the mac soon, and rumor has it that iOS and Android are planned, but based on how the UI has evolved recently, I wouldn't hold out hope for that.
- Fezzik 7y ago
  Totally my personal opinion, but I much prefer MTGO (Magic the Gathering Online, windows only also) as it better emulates table-top Magic. I can't handle all the animations and noises of Arena. Also, much better card/draft selection on MTGO. Not free though, but not nearly as expensive as paper Magic. I am an old fuddy-duddy.
  - risho 7y ago
    its still quite expensive though. it's great if you are looking to play the older formats. getting into legacy for 500 dollars is really nice. that said it's hard to justify buying into standard or pioneer on there. the prices are quite volatile and some of the cards are just ridiculously expensive due to the fact that everyone went over to arena. teferi, time raveler for example. it also feels bad to buy a playset of them because it's only a matter of time until they reprint them and the card tanks to 20 dollars or whatever. arena is nice because you don't have to worry about the secondary market. i would also suggest that if you turn off the sound in game that arena isn't actually all that bad. i say that as a person who's played mtgo since 2012. i agree that draft is bad on arena, but if you want to play standard I actually think it's better.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

throwaway5752 7y ago

This is such a great excuse to post this for MTG fans https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/season/24/phoenix-az/appraisals/1993-magic-the-gathering-beta-cards--201901A18/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/season/24/phoenix-az/appra... Black Lotus, Mox jewels... and the person had no idea of the value. Just an enjoyable watch that isn't worth a separate submission.

Riverheart 7y ago

Artifact might've been a flop but Keyforge has been plenty fun.

Fnoord 7y ago

I'm a bit less positive with regards to MtG. Though I have not played it for a long time (mainly did in 90s). IMO they innovated the combination of loot boxes and pay to win, which with regards to children I find especially cruel (I was a kid in 90s). The only good card game I played in recent years is Slay The Spire. Inspired by Netrunner it has a static, one time fee less than 20 EUR (buy to play), rogue like elements, unique characters with unique playstyle, and a balance between RNG/adaptation/skill. It also has a unique, simple art style which is I guess indy like. I find it daring and refreshing. Hearthstone I was enthusiastic about during beta. I quickly figured it was pay to win (or a massive grind which is IMO an excuse). Garfield and Blizzard might have made good games, and perhaps they still do. But it's also big business. I've seen a myriad of other card games on Steam. If anyone has any recommendations, I'm interested (solo or multi-player).

andrewzah 7y ago
> I quickly figured it was pay to win (or a massive grind which is IMO an excuse). A grindy system basically -is- pay to win for anyone who has a fulltime job and responsibilities. Good luck grinding for what you need if you only play ~30-60 mins every other day or so. I've always disliked league due to this. On top of cosmetics, I also have to purchase heroes...? I guess, or I can just play dota (which is a better game, no bias here :-)). > IMO they innovated pay to win With MTG it was entirely too expensive for our group, so we used Cockatrice to play it for free online. Commander/EDH is fun with friends. More so when you can play decks where the only limit is your creativity. However, one fun and relatively inexpensive format is booster drafts for mtg. I used to play this every once in a while at my local card shop. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_formats#Booster_Draft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_formats#B... > Hearthstone At least you can sell MtG cards. Hearthstone was manageable when it first came out, but I took a break for a while and was overwhelmed when I came back. That devolved into a soulless grind of a game unless one started spending some money on opening packs (... for each expansion). Hearthstone also made me realize I dislike trading card games in a competitive environment. I like fooling around in EDH with wonky decks with a few friends, but trying to climb the hearthstone ladder was terrible.
r00fus 7y ago

greggman3 7y ago

I probably don't have all the facts but it's always bugged by that MTG has patented (or some rights) on similar card games and has effectively strong armed any similar and popular game into paying them a license. My understanding is that game mechanics can't be copyright protected so I don't get what they are suing over and how they have been so successful in getting fees