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> As someone who has raced formula race cars and who has been an enthusiastic participant in racing simulations since way back in the old days of Grand Prix Leg

> As someone who has raced formula race cars and who has been an enthusiastic participant in racing simulations since way back in the old days of Grand Prix Legends let me assure you - a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience other than your hands are turning a wheel and your feet push pedals. The sensations in a real race car are simply overwhelming - the noise, g forces, heat, and the lack of being able to see much other than straight ahead. Grand Prix Legends and iRacing were/are both tremendous fun and a real achievement - but they are nothing like the real thing. Counterpoint: In 2013, TopGear took a top rated iRacing competitor (Greger Huttu) and put him in a proper race car. Yes, he had to bow out due to the physical stress eventually. However, He did really well while he lasted. I think it's a stretch to say "they are nothing like the real thing". https://www.topgear.com/car-news/gaming/geek-rebooted https://www.topgear.com/car-news/gaming/geek-rebooted

justin66 7y ago
That's honestly not much of a counterexample, since you're talking about a 260hp car. Good on him for doing as well as he did, but it seems unlikely he'd be physically able to handle a Formula 1 car at all. The thing you have to remember is that it takes a demanding and specialized workout routine to get an experienced race car driver to the point where they can hold their head up through a turn in an F1 car. Some of the other demands put on a driver's body during a race are pretty crazy as well, particularly on a hot day.
- bikesandcode 7y ago
  Sure. But he went into that 260hp car effectively (physically) untrained. Give him a couple years of actual appropriate physical training and then what kind of car and for how long, is an interesting question. Ultimately, if you've got the brain/reaction times/feel for driving at a high level, what percent of the population has a genetic ability to do the physical parts of it, assuming they are trained? I dunno. The problem, of course, is that the testing for this is expensive, so it's all theoretical.
  - mav3rick 7y ago
    This is such a ridiculous discussion, the skills + physical training go hand in hand. You can't tack one on just like that. Many people don't have the drive or fortitude to survive the training let alone the race.
    - mrmonkeyman 7y ago
      Oh please. The physical component does not require elite genetics, just proper training. Sure, hard work, but nothing out of the ordinary. The reaction time and the general talent for driving however, that's another story.
- xyzzyz 7y ago
  > That's honestly not much of a counterexample, since you're talking about a 260hp car. Good on him for doing as well as he did, but it seems unlikely he'd be physically able to handle a Formula 1 car at all. That was 260 hp car that weighed 607 kg. Power to weight ratio is key here, and trust me, this is nothing like your usual full size car that also sports ~250 hp, but weighs 4 times as much. It might not be F1, but it is a real deal.
  - frankchn 7y ago
    True, but an F1 car is on another level with 900+ hp (including ERS) at 740 kg with driver but not fuel.
    - flyinglizard 7y ago
      It’s in the downforce. Up to 6G sustained lateral cornering. That’s worse than fighter pilots, which have their Gs applied vertically.
      - hermitdev 7y ago
        My car has g-force sensors. I know from experience, it can only handle 1 lateral G before it starts to slide (in a 4-door sedan wrighing around 3500 lbs). Thats with Z-rated tires. What F1 and Indy cars can pull off is absolutely amazing. Most of what they can do is purely because of the aerodynamics and the insane downforce they produce. I remember hearing somewhere that an Indy car produces enough downforce at speed, it'd be able to drive upside down and stick to the inverted road.
        ItsMattyG 7y ago
        Ok so why are there not upside down tracks in formula 1 this just seems like the obvious next step.
        im3w1l 7y ago
        Imagine the leader car having any kind of issue at all, thus bringing the pack to a stop. The lift would disappear and everyone would fall to the ground. With nets it might be quite a spectacle but still safe!
- tonyarkles 7y ago
  Watching the formula one show on prime was pretty enlightening as far as physical training goes. He spent a lot of time in the gym maintaining his body.
  - feel_the_need 7y ago
    Link to show?
    - jacurtis 7y ago
      I'm not sure if it is the same thing that this commenter was thinking of, but the show "Formula 1: Drive to Survive" was a breakaway hit on Netflix (not Amazon Prime) when season one was released last year (which followed the teams across the 2018 season) and brought a ton of new fans to the sport. It is really well done and very engaging. Season 2 just released in February and follows the teams across the 2019 season. Heres the Netflix link: https://www.netflix.com/title/80204890 https://www.netflix.com/title/80204890
      - olivermarks 7y ago
        I spent quite a bit of time with NASCAR last year (I attended the Daytona 500 and previously visited their HQ and archives). Most of the up and coming drivers are previously accomplished eRacers, but the transition to experiences in a real car are enormously different. Not many make the cut, the tracks rote memory is very useful but real life is exceedingly different
        Dahoon 7y ago
        Yeah remembering a NASCAR track is hard.
    - omegabravo 7y ago
      apart from Netflix's Drive to Survive, there is also Amazon Prime's GP Driver. https://www.amazon.com/GRAND-PRIX-Driver-Season-1/dp/B078WFL2TW https://www.amazon.com/GRAND-PRIX-Driver-Season-1/dp/B078WFL...
tc313 7y ago
There's no real control variable, though, so it's hard to tell how well he really did. But, of course, the simulation is something like the real thing and is better than no preparation at all.
- n4r9 7y ago
  Exactly. It could be that this guy was just born to be a real racing driver but never realised until too late, or just didn't want that career. And that a good racing driver is likely to be a good simulation player.
  - jahewson 7y ago
    Being born with magic special powers isn’t high on the list of explanations I’d reach for.
    - n4r9 7y ago
      I guess I worded it weirdly, but isn't that the same as just having an innate talent?
  - stale2002 7y ago
    Or maybe the simpler example is that simulations do indeed provide some pretty good experience for at least some parts of the real thing, lol.
Swizec 7y ago
The issue isn’t so much that skills aren’t transferable — they are. F1 drivers even practice with sims. The question is whether you can keep that level of focus and consistency for 2 hours of a real race under all that physical strain. And most people just can’t. That’s what’s impressive about real racers, doing all this stuff at 6 lateral G. They really are like fighter pilots.
- creyes 7y ago
  It's a risk thing too, i don't think it's just physical exertion. F1 drivers could literally die if they make a mistake. Not so much a problem in a sim
  - Swizec 7y ago
    Or someone else making a mistake like in F2 recently where a crash lead to a death and severe injuries. Car that slammed (survived) into car that stopped (dead) at 300kph had zero seconds to react. Full speed over a blind crest into a stopped car. But if you don’t go full speed over a blind crest, you won’t be in even the top 10. Takes a special kind of person.
    - AaronM 7y ago
      I wonder if technology could fix that, some sort of HUD display that signals a crash on a part of the track. Could update faster than it takes for the safety crew to get out there.
      - Swizec 7y ago
        At 300kph you cover 83m per second. Almost a full football pitch. In this instance the cars were less than a second apart. A HUD won’t help, human reaction times just aren’t fast enough. Doubt even automatic braking would stop in time.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    "The danger? Well, of course. But you are missing a very important point. I think if any of us imagined - really imagined - what it would be like to go into a tree at 150 miles per hour we would probably never get into the cars at all, none of us. So it has always seemed to me that to do something very dangerous requires a certain absence of imagination."
semerda 7y ago
Hahaha racing on an empty track in a car that’s built to handle like a go cart is nothing like the stress of a circuit race with other cars. I used to race my modified turbo 500hp and I can tell you that game racing is nada to real life racing. Even knowing that taking a risk can cost you $$$ or your life is stressful enough. With other cars on the track it’s many more variables to calculate and consider. So let’s not kid ourselves. The delta is larger than one can anticipate without even factoring the physical stresses.
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  I’m not a race car driver but I do track my car pretty often There are people out there who use simulators and very detailed data logging in their track cars to try and experiment with things like braking habits. Saying it’s “nothing alike” honestly feels like gate keeping. Obviously a video game played from your couch is not going to feel like hurtling thousands of pounds of metal around a track, but if you can’t drive in a sim, you’re probably not going to make it around the track. And before you scoff at such a low bar, there are plenty of people who enter a realistic sim, try and go full throttle with 0 counter steering, and immediately lose control Likewise, if you’re one of the best players in the world on a sim, you can probably hack it at commonly accessible levels of racing After all, why is everyone in this thread acting like F1 is the only kind of racing? There’s stuff like SCCA Road Racing series that won’t require you to withstand 5gs of braking force... - This is kind of like saying “nothing from a flight sim translates to flying” because the risk of dropping out of the sky to a horrible death isn’t there
  - Retric 7y ago
    The article is about F1 so that’s the benchmark people are using. Other types of races have their own specific issues. NASCAR for example has lower absolute peak physical demands, but longer races turn into a much larger test of both physical and mental endurance. Given say 3 years to prepare I suspect many could make the jump, but it’s likely well below half.
    - BoorishBears 7y ago
irjustin 7y ago
I wish they posted his times vs expected racers who compete at that level instead of "sickly boy does better and better."
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  He’s not sickly... The forces are just a lot for a normal person. And they compare his speeds to pro speeds, what you’re missing is the average person would kill themselves entering corners at 100 mph.
mywittyname 7y ago
The experience doesn't translate, but the skills certainly do. It's not just those hardcore simulations that translate well. Even standard console games like Forza and GT are good at predicting real world talent. Yeah, the first time these people get behind the wheel of a real race car, they will be sore af and probably puke all over the place. But a workout routine will build physical endurance and most people overcome the nausea eventually. A dozen or so people have graduated from Sony's GT Academy (online racing competition) and gone on to racing professionally.
- Agentlien 7y ago
  This reminds me of the studies done on how experience in video games and virtual training translates to practice in surgery. The basic finding was that just having played a lot of video games helped immensely because it means practice in careful hand-eye coordination. Also, real surgery is obviously different from virtual surgery, but there is strong skill transfer.[1] full disclosure: I used to work for Surgical Science, primarily on the development of LapSim, their simulator for laparoscopic surgery. [1]: https://surgicalscience.com/systems/lapsim/lapsim-validation-studies/vr-to-or/ https://surgicalscience.com/systems/lapsim/lapsim-validation...

justin66 7y ago

That's honestly not much of a counterexample, since you're talking about a 260hp car. Good on him for doing as well as he did, but it seems unlikely he'd be physically able to handle a Formula 1 car at all. The thing you have to remember is that it takes a demanding and specialized workout routine to get an experienced race car driver to the point where they can hold their head up through a turn in an F1 car. Some of the other demands put on a driver's body during a race are pretty crazy as well, particularly on a hot day.

bikesandcode 7y ago
Sure. But he went into that 260hp car effectively (physically) untrained. Give him a couple years of actual appropriate physical training and then what kind of car and for how long, is an interesting question. Ultimately, if you've got the brain/reaction times/feel for driving at a high level, what percent of the population has a genetic ability to do the physical parts of it, assuming they are trained? I dunno. The problem, of course, is that the testing for this is expensive, so it's all theoretical.
- mav3rick 7y ago
  This is such a ridiculous discussion, the skills + physical training go hand in hand. You can't tack one on just like that. Many people don't have the drive or fortitude to survive the training let alone the race.
  - mrmonkeyman 7y ago
    Oh please. The physical component does not require elite genetics, just proper training. Sure, hard work, but nothing out of the ordinary. The reaction time and the general talent for driving however, that's another story.
xyzzyz 7y ago
> That's honestly not much of a counterexample, since you're talking about a 260hp car. Good on him for doing as well as he did, but it seems unlikely he'd be physically able to handle a Formula 1 car at all. That was 260 hp car that weighed 607 kg. Power to weight ratio is key here, and trust me, this is nothing like your usual full size car that also sports ~250 hp, but weighs 4 times as much. It might not be F1, but it is a real deal.
- frankchn 7y ago
  True, but an F1 car is on another level with 900+ hp (including ERS) at 740 kg with driver but not fuel.
  - flyinglizard 7y ago
    It’s in the downforce. Up to 6G sustained lateral cornering. That’s worse than fighter pilots, which have their Gs applied vertically.
    - hermitdev 7y ago
      My car has g-force sensors. I know from experience, it can only handle 1 lateral G before it starts to slide (in a 4-door sedan wrighing around 3500 lbs). Thats with Z-rated tires. What F1 and Indy cars can pull off is absolutely amazing. Most of what they can do is purely because of the aerodynamics and the insane downforce they produce. I remember hearing somewhere that an Indy car produces enough downforce at speed, it'd be able to drive upside down and stick to the inverted road.
      - ItsMattyG 7y ago
        Ok so why are there not upside down tracks in formula 1 this just seems like the obvious next step.
        im3w1l 7y ago
        Imagine the leader car having any kind of issue at all, thus bringing the pack to a stop. The lift would disappear and everyone would fall to the ground. With nets it might be quite a spectacle but still safe!
tonyarkles 7y ago
Watching the formula one show on prime was pretty enlightening as far as physical training goes. He spent a lot of time in the gym maintaining his body.
- feel_the_need 7y ago
  Link to show?
  - jacurtis 7y ago
    I'm not sure if it is the same thing that this commenter was thinking of, but the show "Formula 1: Drive to Survive" was a breakaway hit on Netflix (not Amazon Prime) when season one was released last year (which followed the teams across the 2018 season) and brought a ton of new fans to the sport. It is really well done and very engaging. Season 2 just released in February and follows the teams across the 2019 season. Heres the Netflix link: https://www.netflix.com/title/80204890 https://www.netflix.com/title/80204890
    - olivermarks 7y ago
      I spent quite a bit of time with NASCAR last year (I attended the Daytona 500 and previously visited their HQ and archives). Most of the up and coming drivers are previously accomplished eRacers, but the transition to experiences in a real car are enormously different. Not many make the cut, the tracks rote memory is very useful but real life is exceedingly different
      - Dahoon 7y ago
        Yeah remembering a NASCAR track is hard.
  - omegabravo 7y ago
    apart from Netflix's Drive to Survive, there is also Amazon Prime's GP Driver. https://www.amazon.com/GRAND-PRIX-Driver-Season-1/dp/B078WFL2TW https://www.amazon.com/GRAND-PRIX-Driver-Season-1/dp/B078WFL...

tc313 7y ago

There's no real control variable, though, so it's hard to tell how well he really did. But, of course, the simulation is something like the real thing and is better than no preparation at all.

n4r9 7y ago
Exactly. It could be that this guy was just born to be a real racing driver but never realised until too late, or just didn't want that career. And that a good racing driver is likely to be a good simulation player.
- jahewson 7y ago
  Being born with magic special powers isn’t high on the list of explanations I’d reach for.
  - n4r9 7y ago
    I guess I worded it weirdly, but isn't that the same as just having an innate talent?
- stale2002 7y ago
  Or maybe the simpler example is that simulations do indeed provide some pretty good experience for at least some parts of the real thing, lol.

Swizec 7y ago

The issue isn’t so much that skills aren’t transferable — they are. F1 drivers even practice with sims. The question is whether you can keep that level of focus and consistency for 2 hours of a real race under all that physical strain. And most people just can’t. That’s what’s impressive about real racers, doing all this stuff at 6 lateral G. They really are like fighter pilots.

creyes 7y ago
It's a risk thing too, i don't think it's just physical exertion. F1 drivers could literally die if they make a mistake. Not so much a problem in a sim
- Swizec 7y ago
  Or someone else making a mistake like in F2 recently where a crash lead to a death and severe injuries. Car that slammed (survived) into car that stopped (dead) at 300kph had zero seconds to react. Full speed over a blind crest into a stopped car. But if you don’t go full speed over a blind crest, you won’t be in even the top 10. Takes a special kind of person.
  - AaronM 7y ago
    I wonder if technology could fix that, some sort of HUD display that signals a crash on a part of the track. Could update faster than it takes for the safety crew to get out there.
    - Swizec 7y ago
      At 300kph you cover 83m per second. Almost a full football pitch. In this instance the cars were less than a second apart. A HUD won’t help, human reaction times just aren’t fast enough. Doubt even automatic braking would stop in time.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  "The danger? Well, of course. But you are missing a very important point. I think if any of us imagined - really imagined - what it would be like to go into a tree at 150 miles per hour we would probably never get into the cars at all, none of us. So it has always seemed to me that to do something very dangerous requires a certain absence of imagination."

semerda 7y ago

Hahaha racing on an empty track in a car that’s built to handle like a go cart is nothing like the stress of a circuit race with other cars. I used to race my modified turbo 500hp and I can tell you that game racing is nada to real life racing. Even knowing that taking a risk can cost you $$$ or your life is stressful enough. With other cars on the track it’s many more variables to calculate and consider. So let’s not kid ourselves. The delta is larger than one can anticipate without even factoring the physical stresses.

BoorishBears 7y ago
I’m not a race car driver but I do track my car pretty often There are people out there who use simulators and very detailed data logging in their track cars to try and experiment with things like braking habits. Saying it’s “nothing alike” honestly feels like gate keeping. Obviously a video game played from your couch is not going to feel like hurtling thousands of pounds of metal around a track, but if you can’t drive in a sim, you’re probably not going to make it around the track. And before you scoff at such a low bar, there are plenty of people who enter a realistic sim, try and go full throttle with 0 counter steering, and immediately lose control Likewise, if you’re one of the best players in the world on a sim, you can probably hack it at commonly accessible levels of racing After all, why is everyone in this thread acting like F1 is the only kind of racing? There’s stuff like SCCA Road Racing series that won’t require you to withstand 5gs of braking force... - This is kind of like saying “nothing from a flight sim translates to flying” because the risk of dropping out of the sky to a horrible death isn’t there
- Retric 7y ago
  The article is about F1 so that’s the benchmark people are using. Other types of races have their own specific issues. NASCAR for example has lower absolute peak physical demands, but longer races turn into a much larger test of both physical and mental endurance. Given say 3 years to prepare I suspect many could make the jump, but it’s likely well below half.
  - BoorishBears 7y ago

irjustin 7y ago

I wish they posted his times vs expected racers who compete at that level instead of "sickly boy does better and better."

BoorishBears 7y ago
He’s not sickly... The forces are just a lot for a normal person. And they compare his speeds to pro speeds, what you’re missing is the average person would kill themselves entering corners at 100 mph.

mywittyname 7y ago

The experience doesn't translate, but the skills certainly do. It's not just those hardcore simulations that translate well. Even standard console games like Forza and GT are good at predicting real world talent. Yeah, the first time these people get behind the wheel of a real race car, they will be sore af and probably puke all over the place. But a workout routine will build physical endurance and most people overcome the nausea eventually. A dozen or so people have graduated from Sony's GT Academy (online racing competition) and gone on to racing professionally.

Agentlien 7y ago
This reminds me of the studies done on how experience in video games and virtual training translates to practice in surgery. The basic finding was that just having played a lot of video games helped immensely because it means practice in careful hand-eye coordination. Also, real surgery is obviously different from virtual surgery, but there is strong skill transfer.[1] full disclosure: I used to work for Surgical Science, primarily on the development of LapSim, their simulator for laparoscopic surgery. [1]: https://surgicalscience.com/systems/lapsim/lapsim-validation-studies/vr-to-or/ https://surgicalscience.com/systems/lapsim/lapsim-validation...