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To me, the interesting question is not whether the experience is the same for the driver, because obviously it cannot be. What's interesting is whether the skil

To me, the interesting question is not whether the experience is the same for the driver, because obviously it cannot be. What's interesting is whether the skills transfer. I would assume they do to some degree, but there are probably bits you can't learn except by doing. The reason why the question is interesting is because I love the notion that you can train in a less expensive context and then perform in a higher stakes one. I'm interested why some domains allow that and others do not. Flight simulators are another interesting case where mechanical skills transfer, but that's only a small part of what real world flying really is. On the other hand, by all accounts, drone racing sims are quite good for learning how to fly the real thing, since it's almost all mechanics.

smileysteve 7y ago
The Netflix F1 series includes a segment of driving the sim blindfolded and calling out each turn as it was happening.
- borkt 7y ago
  Time code? I watched this show in the bakckground while working on my House and must have missed it. Genuinely interested to see this segment
ummonk 7y ago
> Flight simulators are another interesting case where mechanical skills transfer, but that's only a small part of what real world flying really is. Do you mean for combat flight simulation? Because flight simulation for commercial flight can pretty accurately replicate the whole experience, not just the mechanical skills, when you include people playing the role of ATC etc.
LoSboccacc 7y ago
I've driven on tracks on touring days, so not exactly a race driver, but still. the lack of proper feedback from g forces make harder on sims to understand what the car is doing. a good wheel can help since you get back part of the wheel loading/unloading and at least you know how to navigate the last 20 meters of corner entry properly, giving enough warning of when the front is letting to, but for what the rear is going to do you're just left guessing. that feeling of the center of rotation shifting is extremely helpful when loading the car, and sure you can just go by track memory on sims, but it's not the same thing.
- Measter 7y ago
  I would disagree that it's impossible to tell what the rear's doing in a sim. I've never driven a real vehicle outside of a few times in a low-powered kart, so I don't know what it's like in that scenario. I assume there's some physical feedback through the seat about what the car's doing. But when I'm driving in VR in iRacing or Assetto Corsa I can tell when the rear is about to step out. It can't be track-based memory because I can tell on tracks I've never driven on before. I don't think it's through the wheel, but rather some sort of visual cue about how the car is moving. I would assume that visual cue is there in a real car as well, but isn't needed because you have the physical feeling.
  - LoSboccacc 7y ago
    > driving in VR ah well that's something I never tried; do you have the same sensation of control while driving on a standard monitor?
    - Measter 7y ago
      It's been several years since I last drove with a monitor (my sim rig doesn't have one nearby), but from what I remember not as much. One of the biggest things I remember noticing when I switched to VR was I very quickly got better at car control. I had a much better sense of where my car was, what it was doing, where the edge of the track was, and where other cars were. This actually had a fair effect on my race performance, too. I was typically around the middle of ACRL's second split in performance for GT3. You can see the effect VR had on my results (split 2 unless noted otherwise): * Imola: 18th * Red Bull Ring: 19th * Monza: 6th (split 3) * Spa: 16th * Paul Ricard: 10th * Bathurst: 4th (got VR the week of this race) * Silverstone: 2nd (my first podium) And then from the season 3 months later: * Mugello: 8th * Donington: 3rd * Zandvoort: 8th * Nurburgring GP: 5th * Interlagos: 21st (got into split 1 for the first time)
      - LoSboccacc 7y ago
        interesting, thanks!
handedness 7y ago
A flight simulator with a good instructor is a great way to build familiarity with systems and processes without the Hobbs meter running. A flight simulator without a good instructor is a great way to learn dangerous fundamental habits you'll spend many dollars in an airplane to correct. (Ask me how I know.) Some people can never fully correct those habits.
saberdancer 7y ago
Felix Rosenquest (IndyCar driver) was talking about sim racing and he said that it depends on the driver. Some drivers feel the car by their body/ass and they will struggle for a while in a sim because there is no feedback from G-forces and the sort. Other drivers which mostly take their information visually, they tend to do much better and have less issue adapting. Obviously the feel is not the same, but many drivers use it for training and find it quite enjoyable and useful. To dismiss it because you don't smell fuel and tyres or get g-loads in the corners is too simplistic.

smileysteve 7y ago

The Netflix F1 series includes a segment of driving the sim blindfolded and calling out each turn as it was happening.

borkt 7y ago
Time code? I watched this show in the bakckground while working on my House and must have missed it. Genuinely interested to see this segment

ummonk 7y ago

> Flight simulators are another interesting case where mechanical skills transfer, but that's only a small part of what real world flying really is. Do you mean for combat flight simulation? Because flight simulation for commercial flight can pretty accurately replicate the whole experience, not just the mechanical skills, when you include people playing the role of ATC etc.

LoSboccacc 7y ago

I've driven on tracks on touring days, so not exactly a race driver, but still. the lack of proper feedback from g forces make harder on sims to understand what the car is doing. a good wheel can help since you get back part of the wheel loading/unloading and at least you know how to navigate the last 20 meters of corner entry properly, giving enough warning of when the front is letting to, but for what the rear is going to do you're just left guessing. that feeling of the center of rotation shifting is extremely helpful when loading the car, and sure you can just go by track memory on sims, but it's not the same thing.

Measter 7y ago
I would disagree that it's impossible to tell what the rear's doing in a sim. I've never driven a real vehicle outside of a few times in a low-powered kart, so I don't know what it's like in that scenario. I assume there's some physical feedback through the seat about what the car's doing. But when I'm driving in VR in iRacing or Assetto Corsa I can tell when the rear is about to step out. It can't be track-based memory because I can tell on tracks I've never driven on before. I don't think it's through the wheel, but rather some sort of visual cue about how the car is moving. I would assume that visual cue is there in a real car as well, but isn't needed because you have the physical feeling.
- LoSboccacc 7y ago
  > driving in VR ah well that's something I never tried; do you have the same sensation of control while driving on a standard monitor?
  - Measter 7y ago
    It's been several years since I last drove with a monitor (my sim rig doesn't have one nearby), but from what I remember not as much. One of the biggest things I remember noticing when I switched to VR was I very quickly got better at car control. I had a much better sense of where my car was, what it was doing, where the edge of the track was, and where other cars were. This actually had a fair effect on my race performance, too. I was typically around the middle of ACRL's second split in performance for GT3. You can see the effect VR had on my results (split 2 unless noted otherwise): * Imola: 18th * Red Bull Ring: 19th * Monza: 6th (split 3) * Spa: 16th * Paul Ricard: 10th * Bathurst: 4th (got VR the week of this race) * Silverstone: 2nd (my first podium) And then from the season 3 months later: * Mugello: 8th * Donington: 3rd * Zandvoort: 8th * Nurburgring GP: 5th * Interlagos: 21st (got into split 1 for the first time)
    - LoSboccacc 7y ago
      interesting, thanks!

handedness 7y ago

A flight simulator with a good instructor is a great way to build familiarity with systems and processes without the Hobbs meter running. A flight simulator without a good instructor is a great way to learn dangerous fundamental habits you'll spend many dollars in an airplane to correct. (Ask me how I know.) Some people can never fully correct those habits.

saberdancer 7y ago

Felix Rosenquest (IndyCar driver) was talking about sim racing and he said that it depends on the driver. Some drivers feel the car by their body/ass and they will struggle for a while in a sim because there is no feedback from G-forces and the sort. Other drivers which mostly take their information visually, they tend to do much better and have less issue adapting. Obviously the feel is not the same, but many drivers use it for training and find it quite enjoyable and useful. To dismiss it because you don't smell fuel and tyres or get g-loads in the corners is too simplistic.