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As someone who has raced formula race cars and who has been an enthusiastic participant in racing simulations since way back in the old days of Grand Prix Legen

As someone who has raced formula race cars and who has been an enthusiastic participant in racing simulations since way back in the old days of Grand Prix Legends let me assure you - a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience other than your hands are turning a wheel and your feet push pedals. The sensations in a real race car are simply overwhelming - the noise, g forces, heat, and the lack of being able to see much other than straight ahead. Grand Prix Legends and iRacing were/are both tremendous fun and a real achievement - but they are nothing like the real thing.

Igelau 7y ago
Aw shucks. Here I thought it was going to be totally identical.
- scarejunba 7y ago
  Haha, right. That comment had literally zero information value. Obviously playing Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 is nothing like ollying your skateboard let alone any of the other tricks. Thinly veiled attempt to use online comment forum as a personal blog.
  - Hamuko 7y ago
    >Obviously playing Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 is nothing like ollying your skateboard let alone any of the other tricks. Simulator racing is pretty different from Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2. There's so much shit that you can buy to get you closer to the real deal. Not really so much the case with Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2. https://youtu.be/o1V8QEAdGNM https://youtu.be/o1V8QEAdGNM
DingleDook101 7y ago
Thanks captain obvious.
braythwayt 7y ago
Your comment speaks to whether someone who enjoys racing an actual car would enjoy the simulation. But in the context of sports-as-trillion-dollar-entertainment-businesses, what is interesting here is not whether simulated racing is the same as racing IRL for competitors, but the degree to which it is the same for spectators. Your comment still stands, though!
abledon 7y ago
Well... this guy would like a word with you: https://interestingengineering.com/a-gamer-just-beat-a-professional-racing-car-driver-on-the-track https://interestingengineering.com/a-gamer-just-beat-a-profe...
- asjw 7y ago
  Luck exists
  - dvtrn 7y ago
    Dude has some amazing luck then, to be able to pull this off twice against seasoned championship drivers, Wow! https://twitter.com/RaceOfChampions/status/1087083689522155521 https://twitter.com/RaceOfChampions/status/10870836895221555...
    - chinesempire 7y ago
      Yeah, seasoned, with no motivation whatsoever... I have beaten a seasoned champion in a Rally competition a couple of times (means I arrived before him), but he won the championship that year, I was in the lower 20% of the rankings at the end of the season Being a champion is not about the single performance, is about consistency over the years
      - dvtrn 7y ago
        he won the championship that year, I was in the lower 20% of the rankings at the end of the season What was the cause of that? You mention "no motivation whatsoever" but I know nothing about the racing world or what kind of preparation-mental or otherwise-goes into being a competitive driver; what does that mean here in terms of how it affected the results so disparately for the two of you at the end of your season (not sure if "season" is the proper word for your sport, apologies if there's a more correct term), and how would you compare it to Enzo Bonito's two victories? I know very little about the racing world other than having an appreciation for the mechanics and engineers who create such marvelous machines, but otherwise I know absolutely nothing about what it means to be a racer, if that makes sense.
asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
To me, the interesting question is not whether the experience is the same for the driver, because obviously it cannot be. What's interesting is whether the skills transfer. I would assume they do to some degree, but there are probably bits you can't learn except by doing. The reason why the question is interesting is because I love the notion that you can train in a less expensive context and then perform in a higher stakes one. I'm interested why some domains allow that and others do not. Flight simulators are another interesting case where mechanical skills transfer, but that's only a small part of what real world flying really is. On the other hand, by all accounts, drone racing sims are quite good for learning how to fly the real thing, since it's almost all mechanics.
- smileysteve 7y ago
  The Netflix F1 series includes a segment of driving the sim blindfolded and calling out each turn as it was happening.
  - borkt 7y ago
    Time code? I watched this show in the bakckground while working on my House and must have missed it. Genuinely interested to see this segment
- ummonk 7y ago
  > Flight simulators are another interesting case where mechanical skills transfer, but that's only a small part of what real world flying really is. Do you mean for combat flight simulation? Because flight simulation for commercial flight can pretty accurately replicate the whole experience, not just the mechanical skills, when you include people playing the role of ATC etc.
- LoSboccacc 7y ago
  I've driven on tracks on touring days, so not exactly a race driver, but still. the lack of proper feedback from g forces make harder on sims to understand what the car is doing. a good wheel can help since you get back part of the wheel loading/unloading and at least you know how to navigate the last 20 meters of corner entry properly, giving enough warning of when the front is letting to, but for what the rear is going to do you're just left guessing. that feeling of the center of rotation shifting is extremely helpful when loading the car, and sure you can just go by track memory on sims, but it's not the same thing.
DonHopkins 7y ago
As someone who has run around spastically and sweated a lot and forgotten to breath and lost my balance then fallen over flat on my face because I got a boner, I found Severe Running extremely realistic and pretty much exactly like the real thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrUWFo2D1Xs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrUWFo2D1Xs
- jacobush 7y ago
  Wow, that was pretty much Fortnite. Silly swag and dances and chats. Very prescient game, that Severy Running, a decade in advance.
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    The first "Running Simulator" I remember playing was "Microsoft Olympic Decathlon" on my Apple ][, where you run with your two fingers repeatedly pressing two keys on the keyboard as fast as you can. But I remember seeing more elaborate, challenging Flash "running simulator" games with physics simulation like "Severe Running". Muscular twitch micro-management sims. [Apple II] Olympic Decathlon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slm2oHqD1ik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slm2oHqD1ik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Decathlon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Decathlon [begin marketing bullshit] >Reception: Decathlon received the Creative Computing Game of the Year Award at the 1980 West Coast Computer Faire.[4] BYTE in 1981 called Decathlon "a great party game"[5] and "a remarkable simulation ... challenging and entertaining", praising the adherence to the real decathlon's rules and the TRS-80 and Apple II versions' graphics.[4] Computer Gaming World stated in 1982 that Decathlon "has all the characteristics that are required of a long-lasting, quality game". It described the game as having "superb graphics and sound", and concluded that "it is an important contribution to the computer gaming hobby". >Former decathlete Douglas Cobb wrote in PC Magazine in 1983 that "this impressive, realistic game brings back vivid memories and provides exciting entertainment through all ten events. The jumping and throwing events are particularly authentic, applying theories used in actual competition. Strategies combining speed, timing, and direction are authentic enough to help an Olympic hopeful train on the basic principles behind the individual events". In 1984 InfoWorld stated that "no one's topped it yet. If I were Microsoft, I'd market the heck out of [Decathlon] this summer." [end marketing bullshit] >Legacy: Olympic Decathlon preceded Konami's Track & Field and The Activision Decathlon, both of which were released in 1983 and have similar gameplay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement_(gameplay) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement_(gameplay) >Twitch vs trick: Some forms of micromanagement involve continuous input of a large number of commands over a short period of time. This is known as twitch micromanagement. For example, a micromanagement technique known as kiting requires continuous input from the player in order to keep their character at an optimum distance from a target. Another example of twitch micromanagement can be found in racing games whereby a player is required to keep making split second adjustments to the position of their vehicle. >In contrast to twitch micromanagement, some game elements need only occasional input from the player in order to exploit tricks in their behavior. In these situations, quick thinking is rewarded over continuous, quick reaction. This is known as trick micromanagement. >Other types of games are based entirely on micromanagement, such as pet-raising simulations and games like Cake Mania, where the player's ability to micromanage is often the only skill being tested by the game. Game Helpin' Squad does spot-on parodies of actual games (and entire genres)! The chat messages and menu trees and popup texts that fly by are hilarious and worth pausing and reading! "Time Travel Understander" is a parody of Braid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fABGyVzVwI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fABGyVzVwI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braid_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braid_(video_game) "World Quester 2" is a parody of all D&D/RTS/RPG games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gy9hJauXns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gy9hJauXns "Pretend Gas Station" is a parody of SimCity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPMeWas4kXM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPMeWas4kXM "Solitaire Party" is a parody of all card games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBbMb3X2R8A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBbMb3X2R8A "Burgers and Guns" is a parody of GTA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2VaHd29DEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2VaHd29DEc "Chronochores" is a parody of I have no idea what, some kind of housecleaning simulator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vu5MrYzVbY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vu5MrYzVbY They also did "A Pissed Off Tutorial For Google Wave": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z4RKRLaSug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z4RKRLaSug
nordsieck 7y ago
> As someone who has raced formula race cars and who has been an enthusiastic participant in racing simulations since way back in the old days of Grand Prix Legends let me assure you - a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience other than your hands are turning a wheel and your feet push pedals. The sensations in a real race car are simply overwhelming - the noise, g forces, heat, and the lack of being able to see much other than straight ahead. Grand Prix Legends and iRacing were/are both tremendous fun and a real achievement - but they are nothing like the real thing. Counterpoint: In 2013, TopGear took a top rated iRacing competitor (Greger Huttu) and put him in a proper race car. Yes, he had to bow out due to the physical stress eventually. However, He did really well while he lasted. I think it's a stretch to say "they are nothing like the real thing". https://www.topgear.com/car-news/gaming/geek-rebooted https://www.topgear.com/car-news/gaming/geek-rebooted
- justin66 7y ago
  That's honestly not much of a counterexample, since you're talking about a 260hp car. Good on him for doing as well as he did, but it seems unlikely he'd be physically able to handle a Formula 1 car at all. The thing you have to remember is that it takes a demanding and specialized workout routine to get an experienced race car driver to the point where they can hold their head up through a turn in an F1 car. Some of the other demands put on a driver's body during a race are pretty crazy as well, particularly on a hot day.
  - bikesandcode 7y ago
    Sure. But he went into that 260hp car effectively (physically) untrained. Give him a couple years of actual appropriate physical training and then what kind of car and for how long, is an interesting question. Ultimately, if you've got the brain/reaction times/feel for driving at a high level, what percent of the population has a genetic ability to do the physical parts of it, assuming they are trained? I dunno. The problem, of course, is that the testing for this is expensive, so it's all theoretical.
    - 7y ago
handedness 7y ago
Counterpoint: as someone who's also raced both to a sufficient degree to know (from well before GPL to rFactor and iRacing in terms of simulators, and in KT100, Super Comp and other real-world categories), the skills are far more transferable than you're indicating. There's still a big difference between the two, but "almost nothing in common" is not an accurate description. And there's a reason the top guys on either discipline can switch over and still be quite competent–if not world-beating–on the other side. All of the top teams use simulators based on commercially-available simulation engines to develop the car and solicit feedback. The skills are largely transferable for many drivers. There are a few odd cases–Michael Schumacher famously became too motion sick in the simulator to use it–but those are exceptions. Maybe you're one of them (and if so, you're in very good company!)
- agoodthrowaway 7y ago
  Not raced cars but raced motorcycles and the very real difference is the vast sensory overload when you’re approaching corners, while in traffic, late braking trying to overtake, trying to stay in the power, being in the right gear, while protecting. By the way all of this is on the edge of your ability, you walk a line crossing back and forth between triumph and catastrophe. The heat is a very real thing and really wears you down physically and mentally. While physically able there were times I approached corners in traffic at very high speeds when my brain felt overloaded like I couldn’t process quickly enough everything that’s happening. My speed was more limited by my brain getting used to the speed than it was to ability to lean, apex, etc... In the real world there is physical danger and real significant consequences to making a mistake. A mistake can end your life. In a game you just lose.
  - handedness 7y ago
    Interesting, as I'm on the opposite end of that one. I've never found sensory overload to be a significant issue in anything I've flown/driven/ridden/raced (including motorcycles). The fastest stuff has required a session or three for my brain to come to grips with the rate of sensory input and get fully on top of it, but after that it's never been an issue and it normalizes to no longer being stimulating just for the sake of the thrill of speed. (Which isn't to say there isn't something fast enough to saturate my brain's ability to process my sensory inputs.) Rather, it's the competition and pursuit of excellence that keeps it interesting. What I will say is that maintaining full situational awareness and keeping my racecraft sharp is more difficult in a sim, because the quantity and quality of the inputs just aren't as good as the real world. Sims obviously aren't nearly as physically demanding (though a full-length grand prix will still leave me in a sweat by the end from concentration), but I find I have significantly more mental overhead in the real world as it's far more intuitive. And if the physical risk is a persistent stressor that takes attentional overhead while racing, then congrats, you're wired like a functioning human, not a racing driver!
alkonaut 7y ago
Seems like most of that should be fixable. You’ll not get more than 1G sustained (and usually a lot less since they won’t tilt more than a bit) in the simulator of course, but any sound volume and heat level should at least be doable. Steering feedback in the most expensive controllers systems should be realistic enough to be able to mimic the real thing (if the simulation is up to it). A good simulation obviously only lets you see from the eye position of the driver, so the complaint is usually that you see less than in a race car because you only have a small screen and a poor sense of depth. Today I hope anyone serious about “pro” level simulation just uses VR. It gives stereo depth, you can look out side windows etc. Obviously if you run a racing sim in an office chair with a cheap pair of pedals and a cheap steering wheel then it’s not going to be close to the real thing.
antientropic 7y ago
On the contrary: there is probably no sport where the sim is so close to the real thing. Being good at FIFA 19 in no way will make you good at real football. But if you put a decent sim racer in a real race car, they are often able to put together a decent lap pretty quickly. See for instance some of Jimmy Broadbent's recent adventures in real-life racing. Conversely, real-life drivers tend to be good at simracing (e.g. Max Verstappen or Lando Norris in iRacing) because so many of the skills carry over. By contrast I wouldn't expect Lionel Messi to be any good at FIFA 19.
- lmilcin 7y ago
  FIFA is a football simulator as much as Mortal Kombat is fighting simulator. FIFA is a game. The difference is simulator's main focus is reality, games' main focus is fun. If FIFA was for reality it would be closer to first person QWOP than isometric view of half of field where you have perfect information and you press a key and your player does whatever trick the key was designated to perform. The substance of the game is lost and only visuals are left.
  - p1necone 7y ago
    I wonder if you could achieve something vaguely approaching reality with vr and limb tracking, and some weird "soccer ball on a string" gizmo tied into the simulation. Soccer seems like it's on the other corner of the "implementation difficulty" matrix from racing. It's pretty easy to hook up a ffb steering wheel and pedals to a computer, actually simulating the cars and track is the hard bit. In soccer the actual simulation would be pretty simple - it's an elastic sphere bouncing around a fairly uniform surface and being hit by mostly solid body parts/boots without too many interacting parts. But putting the user into the world in a way that they get the necessary physical feedback is much harder.
  - dasil003 7y ago
    Cars have artificial controls that are relatively easy to simulate. Any sport where the primary impact is full human body mechanics is not likely to have a sim with transferable skills.
harimau777 7y ago
Do you feel that this also applies to the high end racing rigs that people build? My understanding was that these were basically the race car equivalent of flight simulators used to train pilots.
- ummonk 7y ago
  The fundamental limitation is that you can't properly simulate g-forces with a rig that isn't moving around a large track. So it will never be fully immersive. But it's good enough that there is plenty of skills transfer between disciplines.
bborud 7y ago
What separates some of the new generation racers from the old is that the new generation F1 racers are better at translating between sim and on-track. This was very clear with the Vettel/Hamilton generation, but even more so now. It isn’t so much a question of realism, but usefulness as preparation and working out a plan and a rythm.
- michaelscott 7y ago
  Verstappen is probably the best example of this in F1. He is both a world class real world racer and a frequent online player as well. His reason for not joining the new virtual Grand Prix is that he apparently hasn't had a chance to get into the F1 2019 they're using for it.
  - saberdancer 7y ago
    He thinks the game is shit and he is not wrong. F1 2019 is mostly a single player career mode game with multiplayer bolted on. It's not really a sim, it might even be pushing to call it a simcade. Max is competing all the time in more serious sims like IRacing, rFactor2 or the like. Lando is taking it a bit more casually so he is racing in F1 2019 as well, but he participates in iRacing races as well.
- braythwayt 7y ago
  This goes back a long way. Obviously, Chess is a kind of wargame, but the Germans invented Kriegspiel specifically to simulate war well enough to train officers in strategy. Of course, playing Kriegspiel is nothing like actually standing on the battlefield in the era of Bismark, but nevertheless, the generation of officers who were trained in the simulation were better prepared for their first battle than those who weren’t.
cosmodisk 7y ago
I always sucked at driving games. Obviously,I could do the racing, however, I always struggled to understand how on earth it's so difficult to do it really well. I haven't played any racing games for at least 10 years.Darn it,I only drove a real car a few times.Then, a few months ago all my team from work went to do electric Go-Kart. Some of them do drive cars,some did a fair share of Go-Kart driving and etc.I think I was the only one who never did it before. They run the training session on rules and safety.I put my helmet on and I can't even strap it properly.Then I get into the Kart. I'm also the only one who's got this particular colour racing suite,because I'm the biggest one(6.1', 277lbs)...So now the whole thing starts sinking in.All my bravado is gone..How bad will I crash?Will they put my picture of the wall with a title " lamest driver ever"? Oh, and I'm also the first one in the line to start..Darn in..And then it starts.I'm a bit hesitant to push tje pedal completely to the ground because I'm not sure how it'd react. But I feel it.I feel the track,my whole body reacts to every turn and twist.It feels like I'm part of the track itself.I enter high risk high reward mode and push the little thing on four wheels to the limits. I finished 3rd, after my colleague and some lady who was sharing the track with our group. It felt extatic. I told my colleague,who came 2nd,that I think I found my new hobby. Driving in a computer game doesn't give even 2% of what it feels like in a race.
- Smoosh 7y ago
  I just want to publicly announce: I was a winner at Playscape Racing (and had the T-Shirt to prove it).
- galkk 7y ago
  There's also a chance that you've got lucky with a car. Sometimes the cars at Go-Carts vary a lot with a power. On my last team meeting everyone on a car #6 was winning. It was just much faster than everybody else.
  - cosmodisk 7y ago
    I used two different cars, as there were two sessions.The point I was trying to make wasn't about the fact I came third but rather that you have so much more info and senses when driving in real compared to a simulator.
beetwenty 7y ago
It's basically true of anything using physics. There are very good pinball simulations, and being reliable digital games they are actually a better, more fair competitive venue, but people who really play pinball still crave the real game because of all the analog parts of it, the nuance of pressing your weight down on the table and how that changes across different games, and how you adjust your play to the specific conditions as things wear down.
cortesoft 7y ago
A virtual race driver beat two real drivers in a real race: https://f1esports.com/news/esports-star-enzo-bonito-defeats-racing-heroes-at-2019-race-of-champions/ https://f1esports.com/news/esports-star-enzo-bonito-defeats-...
austinl 7y ago
Another counterpoint (although I totally understand where this sentiment comes from): Pro Gran Turismo players have been banned from competing as gentlemen drivers because they're too good. For folks not familiar with the concept of a "gentleman driver", there are plenty of racing series that pair amateur drivers with pro drivers to compete in teams. Historically, the gentleman driver provided the funding for the team. These were wealthy enthusiasts who were often quite good, but not good enough to be professional. However, it's not actually required that the gentlemen driver fund the team. This encouraged teams to seek out the best non-pro drivers possible, which in this case, happened to be some pro Gran Turismo players. https://jalopnik.com/expert-gran-turismo-drivers-cant-race-in-real-life-beca-5982998 https://jalopnik.com/expert-gran-turismo-drivers-cant-race-i...
sundvor 7y ago
If you have a dual motion platform ( https://www.nextlevelracing.com/motion-platforms/ https://www.nextlevelracing.com/motion-platforms/ ) on an 8020 rig ( https://sim-lab.eu/product/p1-x-sim-racing-chassis/ https://sim-lab.eu/product/p1-x-sim-racing-chassis/ ) with a direct drive wheel ( https://fanatec.com/au-en/racing-wheels-wheel-bases/racing-wheels/podium-racing-wheel-f1 https://fanatec.com/au-en/racing-wheels-wheel-bases/racing-w...) and loadcell pedals (same site) , perhaps with added wind simulator (fan reacting to in game speed), you'll be getting a lot closer. This with a high end PC and triple big screens or VR for complete immersion. You'll also be significantly out of pocket. Still, it's being done. (I'm an iRacer, not a very good one, but I've also been on racetracks in a modded road car on V8 ute supercar training days doing ok to mingle / being traffic with the fast guys and can say 100% that the skills transfer).
- joshu 7y ago
  These are too low-end. The first simulator I used that you could actually feel the car correctly was ~ 100k euros...
  - sundvor 7y ago
    Yet properly tuned in 2020 it can get incredibly good for the money paid. Check Barry's channel at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT_50ZiRFWSm7oziV1OZloQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT_50ZiRFWSm7oziV1OZloQ , he's done some amazing work with his content. The last 5% will cost 95% of the money, as with anything.
    - joshu 7y ago
      I've driven fairly high end rigs (higher than the linked one) and found them very difficult to drive compared to the actual car and actual track. If you want to play around or aren't trying to learn a competitive edge, I'm sure these are great though.
      - sundvor 7y ago
        Lucky you:) Yes the feeling and even smell of the race track, that's beyond emulation. Had a GSXR600 a long time ago, after a CBR250RR. went to the track a number of times.. Scraping my knee on Philip Island doing 180km/h, starting to have the rear slide out and catching it by only gently rolling off (#1) the throttle ... the sheer thrill of the realisation that I mastered my fear of death... Impossible to put into words, and definitely impossible simulate. Yet, this is all we have for the time being. A number of high profile drivers were already using the laser scanned tracks and iRacing to practice their race craft prior to races. They've spent a lot of time customising their rigs and settings to their exact preferences, I'm sure this also becomes a factor. VR is also getting better, although FOV is a limiting factor we're only just starting to improve on. (I've only tried Lenovo Explorer, immersion is amazing but struggle to see the other guys.) With the increased attention, this is a huge opportunity for growth in the sector. One thing is for sure: ESports will never be the same. #1) the more natural untrained instinct to chop it would have caused a high side which at that speed would very likely have killed me
stcredzero 7y ago
>As someone who has raced formula race cars and who has been an enthusiastic participant in racing simulations since way back in the old days of Grand Prix Legends let me assure you - a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience This brings to mind, when Jeremy Clarkson did this segment on Top Gear, where he "practiced" going around a certain turn in a certain car on a Sony Playstation (forget which model, maybe a 3?) and then tried to do it in real life. Totally different! IIRC, the biggest thing was, that he knew he didn't have his life on the line on the game, and he totally knew that in real life. I've had the experience of having a rifle pointed at me during a street robbery. (I was the victim.) There's something very visceral, something operating at a level way below verbal consciousness, where you KNOW your life is on the line.
joshu 7y ago
So I was invited to speak at Goodwood FoS in 2018 and I ended up using a simulator that I could actually sorta almost drive by feel - it had a specific rail to let it rotate around the nose (to simulate the tail getting out) and bladders in the straps (to simulate braking.) But normally, when I try tracks I am used to, I go off in places that I normally have zero trouble with. (What did you race?)
p1necone 7y ago
Considering that pro race drivers were able to transition to sim racing and win, and that pro race drivers already extensively use sims for practice and testing claiming that "a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience other than your hands are turning a wheel and your feet push pedals" seems like a bit of an exaggeration, no? I will acknowledge that Formula One (and similar like IndyCar) are on a whole other level compared to most other 4 wheeled motorsport though.
ehnto 7y ago
That said if the simulations are good enough for real F1 drivers to train with them, and for the skills of sim racers to pretty quickly translate into the real world once they get some seat time, they must be more than superficially similar.
alasdair_ 7y ago
I am surprised they don’t yet have a good “drone” car circuit with F1+ speeds on a physical car, with the driver in a simulator.
deleted 7y ago
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XzetaU8 7y ago
> a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience other than your hands are turning a wheel and your feet push pedals. Real life engineer made a data analysis between a virtual F3 car vs real F3 car, keep in mind rfactor is an old sim from 2005, sure you can't (Yet) replicate the g-forces of the real thing but everything else is pretty close. https://drracing.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/how-close-is-close-enough/ https://drracing.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/how-close-is-close... "From lap time simulation to driver-in-the-loop: a simple introduction to simulation in racing" http://racingcardynamics.com/lap-time-simulation-to-dil/ http://racingcardynamics.com/lap-time-simulation-to-dil/
aguyfromnb 7y ago
>let me assure you - a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience Once again, random person on HackerNews, or the words of someone who has successfully made the leap: "Of course you feel the G-force which you don't in the game, but you're so tightly strapped into the seat, that it's not really an issue." https://www.theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2014/apr/07/video-gaming-jann-mardenborough-motor-racing https://www.theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2014/apr/07... Here's another eSports star on the track: https://futurism.com/sim-racing-virtual-motorsport-beat-formula1 https://futurism.com/sim-racing-virtual-motorsport-beat-form... https://f1esports.com/news/esports-star-enzo-bonito-defeats-racing-heroes-at-2019-race-of-champions/ https://f1esports.com/news/esports-star-enzo-bonito-defeats-... These guys are not down at the local track on the weekend, lapping grandpa; they are racing competitively at a high level. Obviously sitting in your living isn't the same as the track, but stating "almost nothing in common" is certainly not the case.
alexpotato 7y ago
While I'm sure there is skills transfer, to highlight the above: The Discovery channel had an episode of "On The Inside" where they profiled the Benetton F1 team. There was a lot of talk about how going into a turn and pressing the brake was like doing a one legged weight press while going side ways at multiple Gs. They showed all the conditioning that went into preparing for this etc etc Then, they interviewed the team doctor who described how he got a chance to sit in the cockpit during a wind tunnel test. His recollection: "Everyone talks about the side to side Gs but honestly, after just a few minutes sitting in the cockpit with race condition wind speed, I could barely hold up my head. These guys really are super men."

Igelau 7y ago

Aw shucks. Here I thought it was going to be totally identical.

scarejunba 7y ago
Haha, right. That comment had literally zero information value. Obviously playing Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 is nothing like ollying your skateboard let alone any of the other tricks. Thinly veiled attempt to use online comment forum as a personal blog.
- Hamuko 7y ago
  >Obviously playing Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 is nothing like ollying your skateboard let alone any of the other tricks. Simulator racing is pretty different from Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2. There's so much shit that you can buy to get you closer to the real deal. Not really so much the case with Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2. https://youtu.be/o1V8QEAdGNM https://youtu.be/o1V8QEAdGNM

DingleDook101 7y ago

Thanks captain obvious.

braythwayt 7y ago

Your comment speaks to whether someone who enjoys racing an actual car would enjoy the simulation. But in the context of sports-as-trillion-dollar-entertainment-businesses, what is interesting here is not whether simulated racing is the same as racing IRL for competitors, but the degree to which it is the same for spectators. Your comment still stands, though!

abledon 7y ago

Well... this guy would like a word with you: https://interestingengineering.com/a-gamer-just-beat-a-professional-racing-car-driver-on-the-track https://interestingengineering.com/a-gamer-just-beat-a-profe...

asjw 7y ago
Luck exists
- dvtrn 7y ago
  Dude has some amazing luck then, to be able to pull this off twice against seasoned championship drivers, Wow! https://twitter.com/RaceOfChampions/status/1087083689522155521 https://twitter.com/RaceOfChampions/status/10870836895221555...
  - chinesempire 7y ago
    Yeah, seasoned, with no motivation whatsoever... I have beaten a seasoned champion in a Rally competition a couple of times (means I arrived before him), but he won the championship that year, I was in the lower 20% of the rankings at the end of the season Being a champion is not about the single performance, is about consistency over the years
    - dvtrn 7y ago
      he won the championship that year, I was in the lower 20% of the rankings at the end of the season What was the cause of that? You mention "no motivation whatsoever" but I know nothing about the racing world or what kind of preparation-mental or otherwise-goes into being a competitive driver; what does that mean here in terms of how it affected the results so disparately for the two of you at the end of your season (not sure if "season" is the proper word for your sport, apologies if there's a more correct term), and how would you compare it to Enzo Bonito's two victories? I know very little about the racing world other than having an appreciation for the mechanics and engineers who create such marvelous machines, but otherwise I know absolutely nothing about what it means to be a racer, if that makes sense.

asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago

To me, the interesting question is not whether the experience is the same for the driver, because obviously it cannot be. What's interesting is whether the skills transfer. I would assume they do to some degree, but there are probably bits you can't learn except by doing. The reason why the question is interesting is because I love the notion that you can train in a less expensive context and then perform in a higher stakes one. I'm interested why some domains allow that and others do not. Flight simulators are another interesting case where mechanical skills transfer, but that's only a small part of what real world flying really is. On the other hand, by all accounts, drone racing sims are quite good for learning how to fly the real thing, since it's almost all mechanics.

smileysteve 7y ago
The Netflix F1 series includes a segment of driving the sim blindfolded and calling out each turn as it was happening.
- borkt 7y ago
  Time code? I watched this show in the bakckground while working on my House and must have missed it. Genuinely interested to see this segment
ummonk 7y ago
> Flight simulators are another interesting case where mechanical skills transfer, but that's only a small part of what real world flying really is. Do you mean for combat flight simulation? Because flight simulation for commercial flight can pretty accurately replicate the whole experience, not just the mechanical skills, when you include people playing the role of ATC etc.
LoSboccacc 7y ago
I've driven on tracks on touring days, so not exactly a race driver, but still. the lack of proper feedback from g forces make harder on sims to understand what the car is doing. a good wheel can help since you get back part of the wheel loading/unloading and at least you know how to navigate the last 20 meters of corner entry properly, giving enough warning of when the front is letting to, but for what the rear is going to do you're just left guessing. that feeling of the center of rotation shifting is extremely helpful when loading the car, and sure you can just go by track memory on sims, but it's not the same thing.

DonHopkins 7y ago

As someone who has run around spastically and sweated a lot and forgotten to breath and lost my balance then fallen over flat on my face because I got a boner, I found Severe Running extremely realistic and pretty much exactly like the real thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrUWFo2D1Xs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrUWFo2D1Xs

jacobush 7y ago
Wow, that was pretty much Fortnite. Silly swag and dances and chats. Very prescient game, that Severy Running, a decade in advance.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  The first "Running Simulator" I remember playing was "Microsoft Olympic Decathlon" on my Apple ][, where you run with your two fingers repeatedly pressing two keys on the keyboard as fast as you can. But I remember seeing more elaborate, challenging Flash "running simulator" games with physics simulation like "Severe Running". Muscular twitch micro-management sims. [Apple II] Olympic Decathlon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slm2oHqD1ik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slm2oHqD1ik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Decathlon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Decathlon [begin marketing bullshit] >Reception: Decathlon received the Creative Computing Game of the Year Award at the 1980 West Coast Computer Faire.[4] BYTE in 1981 called Decathlon "a great party game"[5] and "a remarkable simulation ... challenging and entertaining", praising the adherence to the real decathlon's rules and the TRS-80 and Apple II versions' graphics.[4] Computer Gaming World stated in 1982 that Decathlon "has all the characteristics that are required of a long-lasting, quality game". It described the game as having "superb graphics and sound", and concluded that "it is an important contribution to the computer gaming hobby". >Former decathlete Douglas Cobb wrote in PC Magazine in 1983 that "this impressive, realistic game brings back vivid memories and provides exciting entertainment through all ten events. The jumping and throwing events are particularly authentic, applying theories used in actual competition. Strategies combining speed, timing, and direction are authentic enough to help an Olympic hopeful train on the basic principles behind the individual events". In 1984 InfoWorld stated that "no one's topped it yet. If I were Microsoft, I'd market the heck out of [Decathlon] this summer." [end marketing bullshit] >Legacy: Olympic Decathlon preceded Konami's Track & Field and The Activision Decathlon, both of which were released in 1983 and have similar gameplay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement_(gameplay) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromanagement_(gameplay) >Twitch vs trick: Some forms of micromanagement involve continuous input of a large number of commands over a short period of time. This is known as twitch micromanagement. For example, a micromanagement technique known as kiting requires continuous input from the player in order to keep their character at an optimum distance from a target. Another example of twitch micromanagement can be found in racing games whereby a player is required to keep making split second adjustments to the position of their vehicle. >In contrast to twitch micromanagement, some game elements need only occasional input from the player in order to exploit tricks in their behavior. In these situations, quick thinking is rewarded over continuous, quick reaction. This is known as trick micromanagement. >Other types of games are based entirely on micromanagement, such as pet-raising simulations and games like Cake Mania, where the player's ability to micromanage is often the only skill being tested by the game. Game Helpin' Squad does spot-on parodies of actual games (and entire genres)! The chat messages and menu trees and popup texts that fly by are hilarious and worth pausing and reading! "Time Travel Understander" is a parody of Braid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fABGyVzVwI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fABGyVzVwI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braid_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braid_(video_game) "World Quester 2" is a parody of all D&D/RTS/RPG games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gy9hJauXns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gy9hJauXns "Pretend Gas Station" is a parody of SimCity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPMeWas4kXM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPMeWas4kXM "Solitaire Party" is a parody of all card games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBbMb3X2R8A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBbMb3X2R8A "Burgers and Guns" is a parody of GTA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2VaHd29DEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2VaHd29DEc "Chronochores" is a parody of I have no idea what, some kind of housecleaning simulator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vu5MrYzVbY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vu5MrYzVbY They also did "A Pissed Off Tutorial For Google Wave": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z4RKRLaSug https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z4RKRLaSug

nordsieck 7y ago

> As someone who has raced formula race cars and who has been an enthusiastic participant in racing simulations since way back in the old days of Grand Prix Legends let me assure you - a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience other than your hands are turning a wheel and your feet push pedals. The sensations in a real race car are simply overwhelming - the noise, g forces, heat, and the lack of being able to see much other than straight ahead. Grand Prix Legends and iRacing were/are both tremendous fun and a real achievement - but they are nothing like the real thing. Counterpoint: In 2013, TopGear took a top rated iRacing competitor (Greger Huttu) and put him in a proper race car. Yes, he had to bow out due to the physical stress eventually. However, He did really well while he lasted. I think it's a stretch to say "they are nothing like the real thing". https://www.topgear.com/car-news/gaming/geek-rebooted https://www.topgear.com/car-news/gaming/geek-rebooted

justin66 7y ago
That's honestly not much of a counterexample, since you're talking about a 260hp car. Good on him for doing as well as he did, but it seems unlikely he'd be physically able to handle a Formula 1 car at all. The thing you have to remember is that it takes a demanding and specialized workout routine to get an experienced race car driver to the point where they can hold their head up through a turn in an F1 car. Some of the other demands put on a driver's body during a race are pretty crazy as well, particularly on a hot day.
- bikesandcode 7y ago
  Sure. But he went into that 260hp car effectively (physically) untrained. Give him a couple years of actual appropriate physical training and then what kind of car and for how long, is an interesting question. Ultimately, if you've got the brain/reaction times/feel for driving at a high level, what percent of the population has a genetic ability to do the physical parts of it, assuming they are trained? I dunno. The problem, of course, is that the testing for this is expensive, so it's all theoretical.
  - 7y ago

handedness 7y ago

Counterpoint: as someone who's also raced both to a sufficient degree to know (from well before GPL to rFactor and iRacing in terms of simulators, and in KT100, Super Comp and other real-world categories), the skills are far more transferable than you're indicating. There's still a big difference between the two, but "almost nothing in common" is not an accurate description. And there's a reason the top guys on either discipline can switch over and still be quite competent–if not world-beating–on the other side. All of the top teams use simulators based on commercially-available simulation engines to develop the car and solicit feedback. The skills are largely transferable for many drivers. There are a few odd cases–Michael Schumacher famously became too motion sick in the simulator to use it–but those are exceptions. Maybe you're one of them (and if so, you're in very good company!)

agoodthrowaway 7y ago
Not raced cars but raced motorcycles and the very real difference is the vast sensory overload when you’re approaching corners, while in traffic, late braking trying to overtake, trying to stay in the power, being in the right gear, while protecting. By the way all of this is on the edge of your ability, you walk a line crossing back and forth between triumph and catastrophe. The heat is a very real thing and really wears you down physically and mentally. While physically able there were times I approached corners in traffic at very high speeds when my brain felt overloaded like I couldn’t process quickly enough everything that’s happening. My speed was more limited by my brain getting used to the speed than it was to ability to lean, apex, etc... In the real world there is physical danger and real significant consequences to making a mistake. A mistake can end your life. In a game you just lose.
- handedness 7y ago
  Interesting, as I'm on the opposite end of that one. I've never found sensory overload to be a significant issue in anything I've flown/driven/ridden/raced (including motorcycles). The fastest stuff has required a session or three for my brain to come to grips with the rate of sensory input and get fully on top of it, but after that it's never been an issue and it normalizes to no longer being stimulating just for the sake of the thrill of speed. (Which isn't to say there isn't something fast enough to saturate my brain's ability to process my sensory inputs.) Rather, it's the competition and pursuit of excellence that keeps it interesting. What I will say is that maintaining full situational awareness and keeping my racecraft sharp is more difficult in a sim, because the quantity and quality of the inputs just aren't as good as the real world. Sims obviously aren't nearly as physically demanding (though a full-length grand prix will still leave me in a sweat by the end from concentration), but I find I have significantly more mental overhead in the real world as it's far more intuitive. And if the physical risk is a persistent stressor that takes attentional overhead while racing, then congrats, you're wired like a functioning human, not a racing driver!

alkonaut 7y ago

Seems like most of that should be fixable. You’ll not get more than 1G sustained (and usually a lot less since they won’t tilt more than a bit) in the simulator of course, but any sound volume and heat level should at least be doable. Steering feedback in the most expensive controllers systems should be realistic enough to be able to mimic the real thing (if the simulation is up to it). A good simulation obviously only lets you see from the eye position of the driver, so the complaint is usually that you see less than in a race car because you only have a small screen and a poor sense of depth. Today I hope anyone serious about “pro” level simulation just uses VR. It gives stereo depth, you can look out side windows etc. Obviously if you run a racing sim in an office chair with a cheap pair of pedals and a cheap steering wheel then it’s not going to be close to the real thing.

antientropic 7y ago

On the contrary: there is probably no sport where the sim is so close to the real thing. Being good at FIFA 19 in no way will make you good at real football. But if you put a decent sim racer in a real race car, they are often able to put together a decent lap pretty quickly. See for instance some of Jimmy Broadbent's recent adventures in real-life racing. Conversely, real-life drivers tend to be good at simracing (e.g. Max Verstappen or Lando Norris in iRacing) because so many of the skills carry over. By contrast I wouldn't expect Lionel Messi to be any good at FIFA 19.

lmilcin 7y ago
FIFA is a football simulator as much as Mortal Kombat is fighting simulator. FIFA is a game. The difference is simulator's main focus is reality, games' main focus is fun. If FIFA was for reality it would be closer to first person QWOP than isometric view of half of field where you have perfect information and you press a key and your player does whatever trick the key was designated to perform. The substance of the game is lost and only visuals are left.
- p1necone 7y ago
  I wonder if you could achieve something vaguely approaching reality with vr and limb tracking, and some weird "soccer ball on a string" gizmo tied into the simulation. Soccer seems like it's on the other corner of the "implementation difficulty" matrix from racing. It's pretty easy to hook up a ffb steering wheel and pedals to a computer, actually simulating the cars and track is the hard bit. In soccer the actual simulation would be pretty simple - it's an elastic sphere bouncing around a fairly uniform surface and being hit by mostly solid body parts/boots without too many interacting parts. But putting the user into the world in a way that they get the necessary physical feedback is much harder.
- dasil003 7y ago
  Cars have artificial controls that are relatively easy to simulate. Any sport where the primary impact is full human body mechanics is not likely to have a sim with transferable skills.

harimau777 7y ago

Do you feel that this also applies to the high end racing rigs that people build? My understanding was that these were basically the race car equivalent of flight simulators used to train pilots.

ummonk 7y ago
The fundamental limitation is that you can't properly simulate g-forces with a rig that isn't moving around a large track. So it will never be fully immersive. But it's good enough that there is plenty of skills transfer between disciplines.

bborud 7y ago

What separates some of the new generation racers from the old is that the new generation F1 racers are better at translating between sim and on-track. This was very clear with the Vettel/Hamilton generation, but even more so now. It isn’t so much a question of realism, but usefulness as preparation and working out a plan and a rythm.

michaelscott 7y ago
Verstappen is probably the best example of this in F1. He is both a world class real world racer and a frequent online player as well. His reason for not joining the new virtual Grand Prix is that he apparently hasn't had a chance to get into the F1 2019 they're using for it.
- saberdancer 7y ago
  He thinks the game is shit and he is not wrong. F1 2019 is mostly a single player career mode game with multiplayer bolted on. It's not really a sim, it might even be pushing to call it a simcade. Max is competing all the time in more serious sims like IRacing, rFactor2 or the like. Lando is taking it a bit more casually so he is racing in F1 2019 as well, but he participates in iRacing races as well.
braythwayt 7y ago
This goes back a long way. Obviously, Chess is a kind of wargame, but the Germans invented Kriegspiel specifically to simulate war well enough to train officers in strategy. Of course, playing Kriegspiel is nothing like actually standing on the battlefield in the era of Bismark, but nevertheless, the generation of officers who were trained in the simulation were better prepared for their first battle than those who weren’t.

cosmodisk 7y ago

I always sucked at driving games. Obviously,I could do the racing, however, I always struggled to understand how on earth it's so difficult to do it really well. I haven't played any racing games for at least 10 years.Darn it,I only drove a real car a few times.Then, a few months ago all my team from work went to do electric Go-Kart. Some of them do drive cars,some did a fair share of Go-Kart driving and etc.I think I was the only one who never did it before. They run the training session on rules and safety.I put my helmet on and I can't even strap it properly.Then I get into the Kart. I'm also the only one who's got this particular colour racing suite,because I'm the biggest one(6.1', 277lbs)...So now the whole thing starts sinking in.All my bravado is gone..How bad will I crash?Will they put my picture of the wall with a title " lamest driver ever"? Oh, and I'm also the first one in the line to start..Darn in..And then it starts.I'm a bit hesitant to push tje pedal completely to the ground because I'm not sure how it'd react. But I feel it.I feel the track,my whole body reacts to every turn and twist.It feels like I'm part of the track itself.I enter high risk high reward mode and push the little thing on four wheels to the limits. I finished 3rd, after my colleague and some lady who was sharing the track with our group. It felt extatic. I told my colleague,who came 2nd,that I think I found my new hobby. Driving in a computer game doesn't give even 2% of what it feels like in a race.

Smoosh 7y ago
I just want to publicly announce: I was a winner at Playscape Racing (and had the T-Shirt to prove it).
galkk 7y ago
There's also a chance that you've got lucky with a car. Sometimes the cars at Go-Carts vary a lot with a power. On my last team meeting everyone on a car #6 was winning. It was just much faster than everybody else.
- cosmodisk 7y ago
  I used two different cars, as there were two sessions.The point I was trying to make wasn't about the fact I came third but rather that you have so much more info and senses when driving in real compared to a simulator.

beetwenty 7y ago

It's basically true of anything using physics. There are very good pinball simulations, and being reliable digital games they are actually a better, more fair competitive venue, but people who really play pinball still crave the real game because of all the analog parts of it, the nuance of pressing your weight down on the table and how that changes across different games, and how you adjust your play to the specific conditions as things wear down.

cortesoft 7y ago

A virtual race driver beat two real drivers in a real race: https://f1esports.com/news/esports-star-enzo-bonito-defeats-racing-heroes-at-2019-race-of-champions/ https://f1esports.com/news/esports-star-enzo-bonito-defeats-...

austinl 7y ago

Another counterpoint (although I totally understand where this sentiment comes from): Pro Gran Turismo players have been banned from competing as gentlemen drivers because they're too good. For folks not familiar with the concept of a "gentleman driver", there are plenty of racing series that pair amateur drivers with pro drivers to compete in teams. Historically, the gentleman driver provided the funding for the team. These were wealthy enthusiasts who were often quite good, but not good enough to be professional. However, it's not actually required that the gentlemen driver fund the team. This encouraged teams to seek out the best non-pro drivers possible, which in this case, happened to be some pro Gran Turismo players. https://jalopnik.com/expert-gran-turismo-drivers-cant-race-in-real-life-beca-5982998 https://jalopnik.com/expert-gran-turismo-drivers-cant-race-i...

sundvor 7y ago

If you have a dual motion platform ( https://www.nextlevelracing.com/motion-platforms/ https://www.nextlevelracing.com/motion-platforms/ ) on an 8020 rig ( https://sim-lab.eu/product/p1-x-sim-racing-chassis/ https://sim-lab.eu/product/p1-x-sim-racing-chassis/ ) with a direct drive wheel ( https://fanatec.com/au-en/racing-wheels-wheel-bases/racing-wheels/podium-racing-wheel-f1 https://fanatec.com/au-en/racing-wheels-wheel-bases/racing-w...) and loadcell pedals (same site) , perhaps with added wind simulator (fan reacting to in game speed), you'll be getting a lot closer. This with a high end PC and triple big screens or VR for complete immersion. You'll also be significantly out of pocket. Still, it's being done. (I'm an iRacer, not a very good one, but I've also been on racetracks in a modded road car on V8 ute supercar training days doing ok to mingle / being traffic with the fast guys and can say 100% that the skills transfer).

joshu 7y ago
These are too low-end. The first simulator I used that you could actually feel the car correctly was ~ 100k euros...
- sundvor 7y ago
  Yet properly tuned in 2020 it can get incredibly good for the money paid. Check Barry's channel at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT_50ZiRFWSm7oziV1OZloQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT_50ZiRFWSm7oziV1OZloQ , he's done some amazing work with his content. The last 5% will cost 95% of the money, as with anything.
  - joshu 7y ago
    I've driven fairly high end rigs (higher than the linked one) and found them very difficult to drive compared to the actual car and actual track. If you want to play around or aren't trying to learn a competitive edge, I'm sure these are great though.
    - sundvor 7y ago
      Lucky you:) Yes the feeling and even smell of the race track, that's beyond emulation. Had a GSXR600 a long time ago, after a CBR250RR. went to the track a number of times.. Scraping my knee on Philip Island doing 180km/h, starting to have the rear slide out and catching it by only gently rolling off (#1) the throttle ... the sheer thrill of the realisation that I mastered my fear of death... Impossible to put into words, and definitely impossible simulate. Yet, this is all we have for the time being. A number of high profile drivers were already using the laser scanned tracks and iRacing to practice their race craft prior to races. They've spent a lot of time customising their rigs and settings to their exact preferences, I'm sure this also becomes a factor. VR is also getting better, although FOV is a limiting factor we're only just starting to improve on. (I've only tried Lenovo Explorer, immersion is amazing but struggle to see the other guys.) With the increased attention, this is a huge opportunity for growth in the sector. One thing is for sure: ESports will never be the same. #1) the more natural untrained instinct to chop it would have caused a high side which at that speed would very likely have killed me

stcredzero 7y ago

>As someone who has raced formula race cars and who has been an enthusiastic participant in racing simulations since way back in the old days of Grand Prix Legends let me assure you - a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience This brings to mind, when Jeremy Clarkson did this segment on Top Gear, where he "practiced" going around a certain turn in a certain car on a Sony Playstation (forget which model, maybe a 3?) and then tried to do it in real life. Totally different! IIRC, the biggest thing was, that he knew he didn't have his life on the line on the game, and he totally knew that in real life. I've had the experience of having a rifle pointed at me during a street robbery. (I was the victim.) There's something very visceral, something operating at a level way below verbal consciousness, where you KNOW your life is on the line.

joshu 7y ago

So I was invited to speak at Goodwood FoS in 2018 and I ended up using a simulator that I could actually sorta almost drive by feel - it had a specific rail to let it rotate around the nose (to simulate the tail getting out) and bladders in the straps (to simulate braking.) But normally, when I try tracks I am used to, I go off in places that I normally have zero trouble with. (What did you race?)

p1necone 7y ago

Considering that pro race drivers were able to transition to sim racing and win, and that pro race drivers already extensively use sims for practice and testing claiming that "a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience other than your hands are turning a wheel and your feet push pedals" seems like a bit of an exaggeration, no? I will acknowledge that Formula One (and similar like IndyCar) are on a whole other level compared to most other 4 wheeled motorsport though.

ehnto 7y ago

That said if the simulations are good enough for real F1 drivers to train with them, and for the skills of sim racers to pretty quickly translate into the real world once they get some seat time, they must be more than superficially similar.

alasdair_ 7y ago

I am surprised they don’t yet have a good “drone” car circuit with F1+ speeds on a physical car, with the driver in a simulator.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

XzetaU8 7y ago

> a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience other than your hands are turning a wheel and your feet push pedals. Real life engineer made a data analysis between a virtual F3 car vs real F3 car, keep in mind rfactor is an old sim from 2005, sure you can't (Yet) replicate the g-forces of the real thing but everything else is pretty close. https://drracing.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/how-close-is-close-enough/ https://drracing.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/how-close-is-close... "From lap time simulation to driver-in-the-loop: a simple introduction to simulation in racing" http://racingcardynamics.com/lap-time-simulation-to-dil/ http://racingcardynamics.com/lap-time-simulation-to-dil/

aguyfromnb 7y ago

>let me assure you - a simulated race car has almost nothing in common with the real experience Once again, random person on HackerNews, or the words of someone who has successfully made the leap: "Of course you feel the G-force which you don't in the game, but you're so tightly strapped into the seat, that it's not really an issue." https://www.theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2014/apr/07/video-gaming-jann-mardenborough-motor-racing https://www.theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2014/apr/07... Here's another eSports star on the track: https://futurism.com/sim-racing-virtual-motorsport-beat-formula1 https://futurism.com/sim-racing-virtual-motorsport-beat-form... https://f1esports.com/news/esports-star-enzo-bonito-defeats-racing-heroes-at-2019-race-of-champions/ https://f1esports.com/news/esports-star-enzo-bonito-defeats-... These guys are not down at the local track on the weekend, lapping grandpa; they are racing competitively at a high level. Obviously sitting in your living isn't the same as the track, but stating "almost nothing in common" is certainly not the case.

alexpotato 7y ago

While I'm sure there is skills transfer, to highlight the above: The Discovery channel had an episode of "On The Inside" where they profiled the Benetton F1 team. There was a lot of talk about how going into a turn and pressing the brake was like doing a one legged weight press while going side ways at multiple Gs. They showed all the conditioning that went into preparing for this etc etc Then, they interviewed the team doctor who described how he got a chance to sit in the cockpit during a wind tunnel test. His recollection: "Everyone talks about the side to side Gs but honestly, after just a few minutes sitting in the cockpit with race condition wind speed, I could barely hold up my head. These guys really are super men."