6 ms·

Looks like this is moving from GTK2, not GTK3 ( latest ).

by Naac 7y ago

MuffinFlavored 7y ago
Does this mean GTK2 and GTK3 are... to be avoided for new projects / dead? How do Qt projects look + feel when ported to Mac OS X? Do they look near native or can you tell it's a Qt project and not a Cocoa project?
- empyrical 7y ago
  Qt5 can be made to look pretty close to a native Mac app, but one thing I haven't figured out yet is if there's a way to get that "bouncy" effect you get when you scroll to either end of a list.
  - unixhero 7y ago
    Well if that's the means to an end, then this world has gone just crazy.
  - syockit 7y ago
    Is this "bouncy" effect the elastic one pulling against the end, snapping the list back to position when you release it, or is it the the one where the scroll ricochets off the end when you apply great force in order to quickly scroll to the end? The former is a very nice UI cue, but who on earth thought the latter was a good idea? As an Android user, I wish there was a way to disable the ricochet on all apps.
    - empyrical 7y ago
      I am referring to both styles of "bounce". Would be nice to have the former to implement "pull to refresh"
- kelvie 7y ago
  They don't look quite native, but I feel the trend is moving away from native-looking apps anyway (like via electron, or forgoing an UI at all and just doing a web UI).
- jcelerier 7y ago
  > Does this mean GTK2 and GTK3 are... to be avoided for new projects / dead? not dead but... here's for instance how Wireshark looked on macOS when it was using GTK : https://blog.wireshark.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/osx-x11.png https://blog.wireshark.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/osx-x1... and here's how it looks now that it is using Qt : https://news-cdn.softpedia.com/images/news2/wireshark-3-0-released-as-world-s-most-popular-network-protocol-analyzer-525173-2.jpg https://news-cdn.softpedia.com/images/news2/wireshark-3-0-re...
  - ori_b 7y ago
    Yeah, nobody set a theme for GTK in that screenshot, and GTK themes tend to look different from the native theme on non-Linux OSes regardless. But, the trend is towards Electron, which also integrates poorly with the OS -- so, I'm not sure how much looking native matters any more.
    - LaGrange 7y ago
      Eeh. It might be perception, but I feel like it was the other way around — around the time iPhone came out, a lot of apps eschewed compliance in favour of achieving clearer identity. I think that cleared the way for electron — I actually vaguely remember some people talking about using html-based apps because they made achieving a specific visual design easier, not because of the portability benefits. And for example AFAIK the new Apple Music app is using a web view for some parts of itself, and as much as I like having "light" apps, I generally prefer interacting with Electron UIs over most QT apps.
  - gray_-_wolf 7y ago
    I like the first one more, am I weird?
    - toast0 7y ago
      The first one isn't Mac like --- the menu bar doesn't go on the top of the window. I don't necessarily think that's great, but that's the way it should be on a Mac.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > How do Qt projects look + feel when ported to Mac OS X? They're in the uncanny valley.
  - bjoli 7y ago
    a lot of apps look non-native on os X, with apple starting the trend of ignoring their own HIGs about 5 years ago. I don't really mind, since osx happens to be my daily driver since about a year, but whenever people claim that osx is visually coherent I can't shake the feeling they are stuck in 1998 and Mac os 8.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      Looking different is ok. The problem is that Qt and other cross-platform frameworks tend to look glitchy, as in their differences are non-intentional and jarring. They also tend to just look pretty old-fashioned, because these frameworks are pretty old now and the controls, layouts, and workflows they provide are a bit old-fashioned. So the first impression you get for software using Qt is old and glitchy. Which isn't great.
      - jcelerier 7y ago
        > So the first impression you get for software using Qt is old and glitchy. honest question, is that the impression you get from using the Blizzard launcher (https://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2013/june/launcher03.jpg https://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2013/june/launche...) or stuff like Substance ? (https://www.awn.com/sites/default/files/image/featured/1015753-allegorithmic-releases-substance-painter-beta-steam.jpg https://www.awn.com/sites/default/files/image/featured/10157...)
      - magduf 7y ago
        What's wrong with something looking "old-fashioned"? That seems to be better from my point of view. I just finally got switched to Windows 10 on my work computer. Every time I start up a simple calculator, it takes up most of the space on my gigantic 27" QHD screen! Do they think I'm blind or something? The old Windows 7 calculator looked just fine and was an appropriate size.
- baybal2 7y ago
  > GTK3 are... to be avoided for new projects / dead? Despite rooting for GTK, I think this is where it is going. A lot of criticism as of late was that GTK is turning from a Gimp ToolKit into a Gnome ToolKit, and you can see how dramatic was the drop in mindshare has been since that trend started. Just like Gnome didn't really survive the 3.0 transition because the project been really stolen by thew few people who force fed Gnome Shell onto the wider community, the GTK did not survive the transition from GimpTK to GnomeTK.
  - pengaru 7y ago
    It's more like the gnome people picked up abandoned torches.
    - bronson 7y ago
      The existence of MATE indicates the torches were never abandoned.
      - pengaru 7y ago
        Only if you conflate the users with the existing pool of GTK/GNOME developers and maintainers of the time. I'm thrilled to see that fork attract enough new talent to apparently maintain itself and meet the needs of what's a relatively small fraction of linux desktop users.
  - markstos 7y ago
    Didn't survive? The most popular desktop distro, Ubuntu, switched their DE from Unity to Gnome.
- cycloptic 7y ago
  I think GTK3 will still be viable for a least a few more years. It's currently in maintenance mode -- no new features will be added, and all feature development is happening in git master in preparation for the GTK4 release. The first release of GTK4 is currently planned for this fall.
- aasasd 7y ago
  > How do Qt projects look + feel when ported to Mac OS X? I haven't seen any cross-platform toolkits that abide by Mac standards. Funny enough, the closest is Mozilla's toolkit. Other than that, there are always telltale signs—e.g. no one seems to grok Mac's toolbars even though they're organized by the basic laws of proximity and grouping. Qt apps have the lazy grid toolbars just crammed from left to right, occasionally with extra-large icons for the ‘designy’ look, and always with colorful icons unless something app-specific is made (like in Calibre). Plus the noisy dividers. Also, since Qt handles all the graphics and input, it has to reimplement everything high-level that the systems provide out of the box, and presumably to track changes in all of that. Hence the past bugs of one-pixel offsets between elements where they can't be in the system. And the present non-support for system-wide key rebinding on Mac—e.g., home/end instead of cmd-left/right. But yeah, Qt is better than something like not-obsessively-tuned Swing. As for GTK, it seems to depend a lot on the author specifically not forgetting to bundle the native-look theme.
  - torstenvl 7y ago
    wx seems to be sufficiently Mac-like...
    - matthewbauer 7y ago
      Doesn't wx just use GTK under the hood?
      - zerr 7y ago
        On Linux, yes. On Mac it uses Cocoa and on Windows - Win32 API. i.e. it is a wrapper for native controls.
    - aasasd 7y ago
      Alas, can't speak in regard to that, because I've never seen a Wx app aside from a few smallish Python projects— which I think I only passed by on Github, nodding appreciatively and then not running any of them.
- pojntfx 7y ago
  NO. GTK has really been getting more and more import for FLOSS as the Librem 5 and the vast majority (Ubuntu switched to GNOME by default, so GNOME is now the default on - Ubuntu - Fedora - OpenSUSE - Debian - CentOS - ... GTK+ since version 3 is really neat. They rust re-did the site as well: https://www.gtk.org https://www.gtk.org
- lmm 7y ago
  Qt was always the better practical choice, and its license issues were sorted out decades ago. Couple that with a world where choosing C over C++ makes less and less sense (compilers having got a lot better) and the writing has been on the wall for years now.
puzzlingcaptcha 7y ago
They did have a GTK3 port at one point (audacious 3.5) but walked back from it: https://audacious-media-player.org/news/32-audacious-3-6-released https://audacious-media-player.org/news/32-audacious-3-6-rel... https://redmine.audacious-media-player.org/boards/1/topics/1269 https://redmine.audacious-media-player.org/boards/1/topics/1...

Looks like this is moving from GTK2, not GTK3 ( latest ).

by Naac 7y ago

Looks like this is moving from GTK2, not GTK3 ( latest ).

Does this mean GTK2 and GTK3 are... to be avoided for new projects / dead? How do Qt projects look + feel when ported to Mac OS X? Do they look near native or can you tell it's a Qt project and not a Cocoa project?

empyrical 7y ago
Qt5 can be made to look pretty close to a native Mac app, but one thing I haven't figured out yet is if there's a way to get that "bouncy" effect you get when you scroll to either end of a list.
- unixhero 7y ago
  Well if that's the means to an end, then this world has gone just crazy.
- syockit 7y ago
  Is this "bouncy" effect the elastic one pulling against the end, snapping the list back to position when you release it, or is it the the one where the scroll ricochets off the end when you apply great force in order to quickly scroll to the end? The former is a very nice UI cue, but who on earth thought the latter was a good idea? As an Android user, I wish there was a way to disable the ricochet on all apps.
  - empyrical 7y ago
    I am referring to both styles of "bounce". Would be nice to have the former to implement "pull to refresh"
kelvie 7y ago
They don't look quite native, but I feel the trend is moving away from native-looking apps anyway (like via electron, or forgoing an UI at all and just doing a web UI).
jcelerier 7y ago
> Does this mean GTK2 and GTK3 are... to be avoided for new projects / dead? not dead but... here's for instance how Wireshark looked on macOS when it was using GTK : https://blog.wireshark.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/osx-x11.png https://blog.wireshark.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/osx-x1... and here's how it looks now that it is using Qt : https://news-cdn.softpedia.com/images/news2/wireshark-3-0-released-as-world-s-most-popular-network-protocol-analyzer-525173-2.jpg https://news-cdn.softpedia.com/images/news2/wireshark-3-0-re...
- ori_b 7y ago
  Yeah, nobody set a theme for GTK in that screenshot, and GTK themes tend to look different from the native theme on non-Linux OSes regardless. But, the trend is towards Electron, which also integrates poorly with the OS -- so, I'm not sure how much looking native matters any more.
  - LaGrange 7y ago
    Eeh. It might be perception, but I feel like it was the other way around — around the time iPhone came out, a lot of apps eschewed compliance in favour of achieving clearer identity. I think that cleared the way for electron — I actually vaguely remember some people talking about using html-based apps because they made achieving a specific visual design easier, not because of the portability benefits. And for example AFAIK the new Apple Music app is using a web view for some parts of itself, and as much as I like having "light" apps, I generally prefer interacting with Electron UIs over most QT apps.
- gray_-_wolf 7y ago
  I like the first one more, am I weird?
  - toast0 7y ago
    The first one isn't Mac like --- the menu bar doesn't go on the top of the window. I don't necessarily think that's great, but that's the way it should be on a Mac.
chrisseaton 7y ago
> How do Qt projects look + feel when ported to Mac OS X? They're in the uncanny valley.
- bjoli 7y ago
  a lot of apps look non-native on os X, with apple starting the trend of ignoring their own HIGs about 5 years ago. I don't really mind, since osx happens to be my daily driver since about a year, but whenever people claim that osx is visually coherent I can't shake the feeling they are stuck in 1998 and Mac os 8.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    Looking different is ok. The problem is that Qt and other cross-platform frameworks tend to look glitchy, as in their differences are non-intentional and jarring. They also tend to just look pretty old-fashioned, because these frameworks are pretty old now and the controls, layouts, and workflows they provide are a bit old-fashioned. So the first impression you get for software using Qt is old and glitchy. Which isn't great.
    - jcelerier 7y ago
      > So the first impression you get for software using Qt is old and glitchy. honest question, is that the impression you get from using the Blizzard launcher (https://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2013/june/launcher03.jpg https://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2013/june/launche...) or stuff like Substance ? (https://www.awn.com/sites/default/files/image/featured/1015753-allegorithmic-releases-substance-painter-beta-steam.jpg https://www.awn.com/sites/default/files/image/featured/10157...)
    - magduf 7y ago
      What's wrong with something looking "old-fashioned"? That seems to be better from my point of view. I just finally got switched to Windows 10 on my work computer. Every time I start up a simple calculator, it takes up most of the space on my gigantic 27" QHD screen! Do they think I'm blind or something? The old Windows 7 calculator looked just fine and was an appropriate size.
baybal2 7y ago
> GTK3 are... to be avoided for new projects / dead? Despite rooting for GTK, I think this is where it is going. A lot of criticism as of late was that GTK is turning from a Gimp ToolKit into a Gnome ToolKit, and you can see how dramatic was the drop in mindshare has been since that trend started. Just like Gnome didn't really survive the 3.0 transition because the project been really stolen by thew few people who force fed Gnome Shell onto the wider community, the GTK did not survive the transition from GimpTK to GnomeTK.
- pengaru 7y ago
  It's more like the gnome people picked up abandoned torches.
  - bronson 7y ago
    The existence of MATE indicates the torches were never abandoned.
    - pengaru 7y ago
      Only if you conflate the users with the existing pool of GTK/GNOME developers and maintainers of the time. I'm thrilled to see that fork attract enough new talent to apparently maintain itself and meet the needs of what's a relatively small fraction of linux desktop users.
- markstos 7y ago
  Didn't survive? The most popular desktop distro, Ubuntu, switched their DE from Unity to Gnome.
cycloptic 7y ago
I think GTK3 will still be viable for a least a few more years. It's currently in maintenance mode -- no new features will be added, and all feature development is happening in git master in preparation for the GTK4 release. The first release of GTK4 is currently planned for this fall.
aasasd 7y ago
> How do Qt projects look + feel when ported to Mac OS X? I haven't seen any cross-platform toolkits that abide by Mac standards. Funny enough, the closest is Mozilla's toolkit. Other than that, there are always telltale signs—e.g. no one seems to grok Mac's toolbars even though they're organized by the basic laws of proximity and grouping. Qt apps have the lazy grid toolbars just crammed from left to right, occasionally with extra-large icons for the ‘designy’ look, and always with colorful icons unless something app-specific is made (like in Calibre). Plus the noisy dividers. Also, since Qt handles all the graphics and input, it has to reimplement everything high-level that the systems provide out of the box, and presumably to track changes in all of that. Hence the past bugs of one-pixel offsets between elements where they can't be in the system. And the present non-support for system-wide key rebinding on Mac—e.g., home/end instead of cmd-left/right. But yeah, Qt is better than something like not-obsessively-tuned Swing. As for GTK, it seems to depend a lot on the author specifically not forgetting to bundle the native-look theme.
- torstenvl 7y ago
  wx seems to be sufficiently Mac-like...
  - matthewbauer 7y ago
    Doesn't wx just use GTK under the hood?
    - zerr 7y ago
      On Linux, yes. On Mac it uses Cocoa and on Windows - Win32 API. i.e. it is a wrapper for native controls.
  - aasasd 7y ago
    Alas, can't speak in regard to that, because I've never seen a Wx app aside from a few smallish Python projects— which I think I only passed by on Github, nodding appreciatively and then not running any of them.
pojntfx 7y ago
NO. GTK has really been getting more and more import for FLOSS as the Librem 5 and the vast majority (Ubuntu switched to GNOME by default, so GNOME is now the default on - Ubuntu - Fedora - OpenSUSE - Debian - CentOS - ... GTK+ since version 3 is really neat. They rust re-did the site as well: https://www.gtk.org https://www.gtk.org
lmm 7y ago
Qt was always the better practical choice, and its license issues were sorted out decades ago. Couple that with a world where choosing C over C++ makes less and less sense (compilers having got a lot better) and the writing has been on the wall for years now.

puzzlingcaptcha 7y ago

They did have a GTK3 port at one point (audacious 3.5) but walked back from it: https://audacious-media-player.org/news/32-audacious-3-6-released https://audacious-media-player.org/news/32-audacious-3-6-rel... https://redmine.audacious-media-player.org/boards/1/topics/1269 https://redmine.audacious-media-player.org/boards/1/topics/1...