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This situation makes me more pessimistic about solving global climate change. The economic damage caused by "shelter in place" falls disproportionately on the

This situation makes me more pessimistic about solving global climate change. The economic damage caused by "shelter in place" falls disproportionately on the poor and the lower middle class, who work in fields where working from home is not possible. Emission regulations and fuel taxes also fall disproportionately on the same people, because they can't afford newer cars which are more efficient. When the French government raised fuel taxes in order to ameliorate climate change, there were mass street protests. What started as a protest against fuel taxes developed into a widespread expression of grievance against inequality. We can expect a lot more of that if we do what it really takes to make a big impact on climate change. If climate policy is not balanced against economic inequality, there is a real risk that such anger will channel into support for populist political parties, who would roll back climate policy when elected.

njarboe 7y ago
I don't think people working in fields are being told to not go to work. Food production is critical work and is still allowed. It is the service industry (bars, restaurants, hotels, travel, sports, concerts, etc.) that is taking the hit, but it also has lots of low wage jobs. If a carbon tax was applied to whole countries and the funds collected given back as a per person dividend instead of going into the general budget, I think most people would support that. There are ways forward. We just have to support ways that work with the system we have instead of using climate change as a crisis to implement the utopian ideas of a few.
- twblalock 7y ago
  > I don't think people working in fields are being told to not go to work. I didn't mean literal field workers. I mean field as in "job field".
tomp 7y ago
The answer is, obviously, combining climate policy with populism. Tax CO2 / fuel / packaging / consumption / transport as much as you want, but spend that tax money on a UBI-like benefit. That by definition helps lowest earners the most, plus makes sure the government doesn’t waste the money.
- ken 7y ago
  That only works within one jurisdiction. What about when the rich/poor divide are not constituents of one government, but the average citizens in two different countries? The U.S. couldn't even ratify Kyoto, and that only required (AFAICT) monetary payments for climate technology, not UBI. I can't imagine any scenario in my lifetime in which the U.S. Congress would approve a treaty which required UBI payments to people in developing countries. As a human, I think that's an interesting idea that deserves serious consideration. As a citizen of a developed country whose government can't even agree to provide healthcare for its own people, I think it has no chance.
ken 7y ago
This has always been one of the big issues. I remember in college in the 1990's being told that you can't just enact pollution limits globally because developing countries would call foul over the injustice. The UK and the US and others got rich by (doing what we'd describe today as) polluting horribly, on their way to develop cleaner technologies. If you put pollution caps on all countries, it's going to hit developing countries right when they're trying to do the same.
asdff 7y ago
Maybe a solution would be to credit good behavior? Transit hardly makes much money on fares anyway.
fyfy18 7y ago
> When the French government raised fuel taxes in order to ameliorate climate change, there were mass street protests To be fair, in France protests are a pretty common occurrence. They often turn violent as well. https://www.france24.com/en/20181207-france-yellow-vest-protests-aux-barricades-long-history-revolt https://www.france24.com/en/20181207-france-yellow-vest-prot... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unr...

njarboe 7y ago

I don't think people working in fields are being told to not go to work. Food production is critical work and is still allowed. It is the service industry (bars, restaurants, hotels, travel, sports, concerts, etc.) that is taking the hit, but it also has lots of low wage jobs. If a carbon tax was applied to whole countries and the funds collected given back as a per person dividend instead of going into the general budget, I think most people would support that. There are ways forward. We just have to support ways that work with the system we have instead of using climate change as a crisis to implement the utopian ideas of a few.

twblalock 7y ago
> I don't think people working in fields are being told to not go to work. I didn't mean literal field workers. I mean field as in "job field".

tomp 7y ago

The answer is, obviously, combining climate policy with populism. Tax CO2 / fuel / packaging / consumption / transport as much as you want, but spend that tax money on a UBI-like benefit. That by definition helps lowest earners the most, plus makes sure the government doesn’t waste the money.

ken 7y ago
That only works within one jurisdiction. What about when the rich/poor divide are not constituents of one government, but the average citizens in two different countries? The U.S. couldn't even ratify Kyoto, and that only required (AFAICT) monetary payments for climate technology, not UBI. I can't imagine any scenario in my lifetime in which the U.S. Congress would approve a treaty which required UBI payments to people in developing countries. As a human, I think that's an interesting idea that deserves serious consideration. As a citizen of a developed country whose government can't even agree to provide healthcare for its own people, I think it has no chance.

ken 7y ago

This has always been one of the big issues. I remember in college in the 1990's being told that you can't just enact pollution limits globally because developing countries would call foul over the injustice. The UK and the US and others got rich by (doing what we'd describe today as) polluting horribly, on their way to develop cleaner technologies. If you put pollution caps on all countries, it's going to hit developing countries right when they're trying to do the same.

asdff 7y ago

Maybe a solution would be to credit good behavior? Transit hardly makes much money on fares anyway.

fyfy18 7y ago

> When the French government raised fuel taxes in order to ameliorate climate change, there were mass street protests To be fair, in France protests are a pretty common occurrence. They often turn violent as well. https://www.france24.com/en/20181207-france-yellow-vest-protests-aux-barricades-long-history-revolt https://www.france24.com/en/20181207-france-yellow-vest-prot... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unr...