17 ms·

> Are surgical masks going to give you total protection? Of course not, but as you say they provide SOME benefit. Saying "masks don't work because they don't fu

by ardy42 7y ago

> Are surgical masks going to give you total protection? Of course not, but as you say they provide SOME benefit. Saying "masks don't work because they don't fully stop the virus and users misuse them" Surgical masks aren't about protecting the wearer from everyone else, they're about protecting everyone else from the wearer [1]. They may provide the wearer some protection, but that's not really the point. The emphasis in the rhetoric about masks needs to change. It should not be about individualist self-protection, but about doing your part to protect the community. I think they should be recommended for that reason [2]. [1] Respirators are devices for protecting the wearer, and the N95 type has been much discussed. Everyone should learn the difference to de-confuse the general conversation in this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2uLfEVD2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR2uLfEVD2w https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/956213O/differences-between-respirators-and-masks.pdf https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/956213O/differences-betw... [2] If there's enough supply. It seems like surgical masks are getting drafted into the role of PPE for medical personnel (which they're poorly suited to) due to the N95 shortage. It's unfortunate that the US hasn't developed a culture where you wear a mask to protect others from your illnesses, so they're not widely available outside of healthcare settings.

take_a_breath 7y ago
In a scenario where we don’t have enough tests to determine who does and doesn’t have this virus, shouldn’t be we encourage more mask wearing?
Consultant32452 7y ago
>Surgical masks aren't about protecting the wearer from everyone else, they're about protecting everyone else from the wearer [1]. They may provide the wearer some protection, but that's not really the point. I think you're confusing the normal use for these masks with what they are actually capable of doing. Yes, in a surgical setting the masks are worn primarily to protect the patient from the surgeon, but the masks do work both ways. Here's a citation from an infectious disease specialist: https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/surgical-mask-flu-prevention https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/surgical-mas... >“Yes, a surgical mask can help prevent the flu,” Sherif Mossad, MD, an infectious disease specialist at the Cleveland Clinic, tells Health. “Flu is carried in air droplets, so a mask would mechanically prevent the flu virus from reaching other people.” It would work both ways, says Dr. Mossad, preventing transmission of the flu virus to others and for keeping a mask-wearer from picking up an infection.
- ardy42 7y ago
  >> Surgical masks aren't about protecting the wearer from everyone else, they're about protecting everyone else from the wearer [1]. They may provide the wearer some protection, but that's not really the point. > I think you're confusing the normal use for these masks with what they are actually capable of doing. Yes, in a surgical setting the masks are worn primarily to protect the patient from the surgeon, but the masks do work both ways. Here's a citation: I wasn't confused. That's why I said they may provide the wearer some protection. The 3M YouTube video I linked even quantifies this, by measuring and comparing leakage between a surgical mask and an N95 respirator. But that's not the point. Don't wear a mask to protect yourself, wear a mask to protect others.
  - Consultant32452 7y ago
    Yes an N95 mask provides more protection than a surgical mask. That's completely different from whether either mask protects the wearer. Both masks absolutely protect the wearer from infection. I'm sure you understand that, but the way you are wording things makes this unclear.
    - bialpio 7y ago
      If you have a mask shortage and there is one mask left in the country, is it better for the society for the sick person to wear it or for healthy person to wear it?
      - Consultant32452 7y ago
        I simply will not stand to be "managed" or lied to. The masks protect the wearer. That is a simple fact. Anyone who states/implies otherwise is either ignorant or a liar. Now we have the separate issue of the fact that there is a critical supply shortage. In such a scenario I'm more than happy to oblige in managing systemic risk by allocating all the masks to healthcare workers, the critically vulnerable, etc. But don't lie to me along the way.
simonsarris 7y ago
> Surgical masks aren't about protecting the wearer from everyone else, they're about protecting everyone else from the wearer [1]. They may provide the wearer some protection, but that's not really the point. Normal people using surgical masks in public are definitely also for protecting the wearer, and do offer protection. "Any type of general mask use is likely to decrease viral exposure and infection risk on a population level, in spite of imperfect fit and imperfect adherence, personal respirators providing most protection." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ Additionally, the number of asymptomatic carriers who may be able to spread the disease is possibly quite large.
Thriptic 7y ago
I know what their stated purpose is, but it is true that wearing a mask protects the wearer as well to a degree. Stating that it doesn't (as many in the media / CDC / politicians have said) is factually incorrect. If they want to say that masks need to be preserved for healthcare workers or sick people, then they should say so and I would agree, but when they start bullshitting to try to trick people into the behavior that they want then it completely undermines their credibility. People then start asking things like "is it actually true that we need to socially distance or is that a lie as well?" The number one thing you should not do during times of crisis is start lying. For example, I don't trust the WHO much anymore because they lied and said that closing China's borders would not stop the spread of corona behind pressure from the Chinese government.

by ardy42 7y ago

take_a_breath 7y ago

In a scenario where we don’t have enough tests to determine who does and doesn’t have this virus, shouldn’t be we encourage more mask wearing?

Consultant32452 7y ago

>Surgical masks aren't about protecting the wearer from everyone else, they're about protecting everyone else from the wearer [1]. They may provide the wearer some protection, but that's not really the point. I think you're confusing the normal use for these masks with what they are actually capable of doing. Yes, in a surgical setting the masks are worn primarily to protect the patient from the surgeon, but the masks do work both ways. Here's a citation from an infectious disease specialist: https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/surgical-mask-flu-prevention https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/surgical-mas... >“Yes, a surgical mask can help prevent the flu,” Sherif Mossad, MD, an infectious disease specialist at the Cleveland Clinic, tells Health. “Flu is carried in air droplets, so a mask would mechanically prevent the flu virus from reaching other people.” It would work both ways, says Dr. Mossad, preventing transmission of the flu virus to others and for keeping a mask-wearer from picking up an infection.

ardy42 7y ago
>> Surgical masks aren't about protecting the wearer from everyone else, they're about protecting everyone else from the wearer [1]. They may provide the wearer some protection, but that's not really the point. > I think you're confusing the normal use for these masks with what they are actually capable of doing. Yes, in a surgical setting the masks are worn primarily to protect the patient from the surgeon, but the masks do work both ways. Here's a citation: I wasn't confused. That's why I said they may provide the wearer some protection. The 3M YouTube video I linked even quantifies this, by measuring and comparing leakage between a surgical mask and an N95 respirator. But that's not the point. Don't wear a mask to protect yourself, wear a mask to protect others.
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  Yes an N95 mask provides more protection than a surgical mask. That's completely different from whether either mask protects the wearer. Both masks absolutely protect the wearer from infection. I'm sure you understand that, but the way you are wording things makes this unclear.
  - bialpio 7y ago
    If you have a mask shortage and there is one mask left in the country, is it better for the society for the sick person to wear it or for healthy person to wear it?
    - Consultant32452 7y ago
      I simply will not stand to be "managed" or lied to. The masks protect the wearer. That is a simple fact. Anyone who states/implies otherwise is either ignorant or a liar. Now we have the separate issue of the fact that there is a critical supply shortage. In such a scenario I'm more than happy to oblige in managing systemic risk by allocating all the masks to healthcare workers, the critically vulnerable, etc. But don't lie to me along the way.

simonsarris 7y ago

> Surgical masks aren't about protecting the wearer from everyone else, they're about protecting everyone else from the wearer [1]. They may provide the wearer some protection, but that's not really the point. Normal people using surgical masks in public are definitely also for protecting the wearer, and do offer protection. "Any type of general mask use is likely to decrease viral exposure and infection risk on a population level, in spite of imperfect fit and imperfect adherence, personal respirators providing most protection." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ Additionally, the number of asymptomatic carriers who may be able to spread the disease is possibly quite large.

Thriptic 7y ago

I know what their stated purpose is, but it is true that wearing a mask protects the wearer as well to a degree. Stating that it doesn't (as many in the media / CDC / politicians have said) is factually incorrect. If they want to say that masks need to be preserved for healthcare workers or sick people, then they should say so and I would agree, but when they start bullshitting to try to trick people into the behavior that they want then it completely undermines their credibility. People then start asking things like "is it actually true that we need to socially distance or is that a lie as well?" The number one thing you should not do during times of crisis is start lying. For example, I don't trust the WHO much anymore because they lied and said that closing China's borders would not stop the spread of corona behind pressure from the Chinese government.