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You could argue that a great deal of the technological advancement of the later 20th century is a direct result of the CIA's paranoia and inability to correctly

by 00010 16y ago

You could argue that a great deal of the technological advancement of the later 20th century is a direct result of the CIA's paranoia and inability to correctly assess the real capabilities of the USSR (and the attendant fervor and fear of the public, which enabled the vast level of government expenditure on the Space Program). A content and secure populace would surely have preferred the money to have been spent elsewhere (on, eg, feeding the poor). What does it mean for technological innovation if the 'complex mix' of factors it depends upon includes the enthusiasm of a propaganda-fueled public? After all, the (relatively) content societies of contemporary northern Europe have never produced anything like the level of innovation seen in Cold War America, despite their unusually high appreciation of scientific rationalism. Uncomfortable thinking...

qw 16y ago
You can't compare the output of a country with over 300 million people with Northern Europe. The money spent on technology alone is probably larger than the combined national budgets of those countries. Of course this will produce more noticeable results, but that doesn't mean that they don't contribute to innovation.
- 00010 16y ago
  My point was really just that the level of public investment in technology (as a proportion of any measure like GDP) in those countries is nowhere near what the US spent on the Space Race. And the US isn't spending money on technology like that anymore either.
- anamax 16y ago
  > You can't compare the output of a country with over 300 million people with Northern Europe. Why not? The comparison is considered fair whenever it favors Northern Europe, so why is it unfair when NE doesn't do as well? Northern Europe has roughly the same population as the US. The people look basically the same. They're considered first world. etc. > The money spent on technology alone is probably larger than the combined national budgets of those countries. Not even close. Total govt spending, per capita, is roughly the same. (Canada spends a bit less per person than the US.) So, there's no way that US govt tech spending, which is a small fraction of govt spending, can be greater than the total govt spending in those countries. The US probably does have more private spending on tech than those countries, but that's because the US' greater gdp/person lets it spend more money privately on everything. So, why is their GDP so much lower? We keep hearing how much better they are, so why doesn't it show up in output? Yes, it's plausible to choose lower output, but is that really what's going on? Let's see the numbers showing that having less makes them better off.
  - qw 16y ago
    > Why not? The comparison is considered fair whenever it favors Northern Europe, so why is it unfair when NE doesn't do as well? US is a single country with a common language and culture. It's much easier to share academical results and knowledge in that environment. I hate to use a buzzword, but "synergy" is probably a good description of that effect. > So, why is their GDP so much lower? We keep hearing how much better they are, so why doesn't it show up in output? In my opinion it's not a good comparison. If we look at the GDP per capita, you will find lots of states with lower rates than many European countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_... When you hear "how much better the countries are", it is based on other factors than GDP. If there was something special about the US political system that generates wealth, you would expect the results to be more evenly distributed. Northern Europe consists of countries that are far more diverse than US states with larger differences in political systems, language, culture and history. It seems that some US states are better at generating wealth than others. But it is my guess that they still have huge advantages of a single market with a common language and relatively similar culture. You also see more mobility in the workforce than in European countries.
    - anamax 16y ago
      > > Why not? The comparison is considered fair whenever it favors Northern Europe, so why is it unfair when NE doesn't do as well? > US is a single country with a common language and culture. True, but that doesn't explain why the comparison is fair in some cases and not others. >> So, why is their GDP so much lower? We keep hearing how much better they are, so why doesn't it show up in output? > In my opinion it's not a good comparison. How about some support for that opinion? (And, as I noted, no one complains about such comparisions when they're trying to make the US look bad.) > If we look at the GDP per capita, you will find lots of states with lower rates than many European countries. Actually, you find a few states that would be in the middle/low europe and a fair number of states that are over the top. But, so what? There's variation between and within European countries. There's variation between and within US states. That doesn't change the fact that US per-capita GDP is significantly higher. > If there was something special about the US political system that generates wealth, you would expect the results to be more evenly distributed. Why would you expect that? The US poor fare rather well on an absolute scale. You seem to think that what your neighbor has matters more than what you have. I disagree. As to "relatively similar culture", the US TV culture is fairly uniform and the areas that techsters see are fairly similar, but go to south San Jose and tell me that it's just like Palo Alto. Heck, go to East Palo Alto and Redwood City. (They're not the same.) If you're willing to travel a bit more (the US is big), there is lots of cultural diversity. Do you really think that Madison Wisconsin is much like Dry Creek Missouri?
watchandwait 16y ago
Actually if you study the history of LBJ's "Great Society" expansion of the U.S. welfare state, a major argument was that we had to spend more on food, housing, and health care for the aged and poor in order to win the PR war against communism.
Plimsoll 16y ago
If I recall right during second world war many jewish scientist emigrated from Germany to America. It was these emigrated scientist, their students and American scientist who played the scientific part of cold war. With so many new scientist moving in and political motivation to beat those communists, it sounds only natural that there was an outburst of technology at that era. Meanwhile in northern European countries (I'm seeing this mostly in Finland's perspective) had to play nice and humble with the Soviet union it being geologically right next to it. In addition to that Finland had huge amount of war reparations to pay due to losing winter and continuation wars against Soviet Union. Also since Soviet Union was the other big player of that time, with its own space programs and so on, it was only natural that the brightest minds in technological perspective went to Soviet universities and did their possible contributions there (I'm not expert of this matter but I remember reading there was at least some level of brain leakage during that era) Fall of Soviet union wasn't either that good of a change for Nordic countries since Soviet Union was one of our biggest sources of export. Of course this is all just historical blabbering the real deal being imho the fact that in Nordic countries are good places in average, which means we do well in global rankings like PISA tests, but for technological innovation and economical rise it usually is the right side of gaussian curve that is needed. Also in eyes of Finn (I really don't know how these things are in states) due to more or less powerful labor movement and being "Nordic welfare state" (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Nordic_welfare_state https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Nordic_welfar...) we have high labor expenses for employer. Add this to seemingly high bureaucracy to start a company, I don't see it that odd that we don't have any startup culture and every one just goes to work for Nokia (this is of course just extrapolation as there are interesting startups here and there but I feel the general culture isn't that motivating towards innovation).

by 00010 16y ago

qw 16y ago

You can't compare the output of a country with over 300 million people with Northern Europe. The money spent on technology alone is probably larger than the combined national budgets of those countries. Of course this will produce more noticeable results, but that doesn't mean that they don't contribute to innovation.

00010 16y ago
My point was really just that the level of public investment in technology (as a proportion of any measure like GDP) in those countries is nowhere near what the US spent on the Space Race. And the US isn't spending money on technology like that anymore either.
anamax 16y ago
> You can't compare the output of a country with over 300 million people with Northern Europe. Why not? The comparison is considered fair whenever it favors Northern Europe, so why is it unfair when NE doesn't do as well? Northern Europe has roughly the same population as the US. The people look basically the same. They're considered first world. etc. > The money spent on technology alone is probably larger than the combined national budgets of those countries. Not even close. Total govt spending, per capita, is roughly the same. (Canada spends a bit less per person than the US.) So, there's no way that US govt tech spending, which is a small fraction of govt spending, can be greater than the total govt spending in those countries. The US probably does have more private spending on tech than those countries, but that's because the US' greater gdp/person lets it spend more money privately on everything. So, why is their GDP so much lower? We keep hearing how much better they are, so why doesn't it show up in output? Yes, it's plausible to choose lower output, but is that really what's going on? Let's see the numbers showing that having less makes them better off.
- qw 16y ago
  > Why not? The comparison is considered fair whenever it favors Northern Europe, so why is it unfair when NE doesn't do as well? US is a single country with a common language and culture. It's much easier to share academical results and knowledge in that environment. I hate to use a buzzword, but "synergy" is probably a good description of that effect. > So, why is their GDP so much lower? We keep hearing how much better they are, so why doesn't it show up in output? In my opinion it's not a good comparison. If we look at the GDP per capita, you will find lots of states with lower rates than many European countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_... When you hear "how much better the countries are", it is based on other factors than GDP. If there was something special about the US political system that generates wealth, you would expect the results to be more evenly distributed. Northern Europe consists of countries that are far more diverse than US states with larger differences in political systems, language, culture and history. It seems that some US states are better at generating wealth than others. But it is my guess that they still have huge advantages of a single market with a common language and relatively similar culture. You also see more mobility in the workforce than in European countries.
  - anamax 16y ago
    > > Why not? The comparison is considered fair whenever it favors Northern Europe, so why is it unfair when NE doesn't do as well? > US is a single country with a common language and culture. True, but that doesn't explain why the comparison is fair in some cases and not others. >> So, why is their GDP so much lower? We keep hearing how much better they are, so why doesn't it show up in output? > In my opinion it's not a good comparison. How about some support for that opinion? (And, as I noted, no one complains about such comparisions when they're trying to make the US look bad.) > If we look at the GDP per capita, you will find lots of states with lower rates than many European countries. Actually, you find a few states that would be in the middle/low europe and a fair number of states that are over the top. But, so what? There's variation between and within European countries. There's variation between and within US states. That doesn't change the fact that US per-capita GDP is significantly higher. > If there was something special about the US political system that generates wealth, you would expect the results to be more evenly distributed. Why would you expect that? The US poor fare rather well on an absolute scale. You seem to think that what your neighbor has matters more than what you have. I disagree. As to "relatively similar culture", the US TV culture is fairly uniform and the areas that techsters see are fairly similar, but go to south San Jose and tell me that it's just like Palo Alto. Heck, go to East Palo Alto and Redwood City. (They're not the same.) If you're willing to travel a bit more (the US is big), there is lots of cultural diversity. Do you really think that Madison Wisconsin is much like Dry Creek Missouri?

watchandwait 16y ago

Actually if you study the history of LBJ's "Great Society" expansion of the U.S. welfare state, a major argument was that we had to spend more on food, housing, and health care for the aged and poor in order to win the PR war against communism.

Plimsoll 16y ago

If I recall right during second world war many jewish scientist emigrated from Germany to America. It was these emigrated scientist, their students and American scientist who played the scientific part of cold war. With so many new scientist moving in and political motivation to beat those communists, it sounds only natural that there was an outburst of technology at that era. Meanwhile in northern European countries (I'm seeing this mostly in Finland's perspective) had to play nice and humble with the Soviet union it being geologically right next to it. In addition to that Finland had huge amount of war reparations to pay due to losing winter and continuation wars against Soviet Union. Also since Soviet Union was the other big player of that time, with its own space programs and so on, it was only natural that the brightest minds in technological perspective went to Soviet universities and did their possible contributions there (I'm not expert of this matter but I remember reading there was at least some level of brain leakage during that era) Fall of Soviet union wasn't either that good of a change for Nordic countries since Soviet Union was one of our biggest sources of export. Of course this is all just historical blabbering the real deal being imho the fact that in Nordic countries are good places in average, which means we do well in global rankings like PISA tests, but for technological innovation and economical rise it usually is the right side of gaussian curve that is needed. Also in eyes of Finn (I really don't know how these things are in states) due to more or less powerful labor movement and being "Nordic welfare state" (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Nordic_welfare_state https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Nordic_welfar...) we have high labor expenses for employer. Add this to seemingly high bureaucracy to start a company, I don't see it that odd that we don't have any startup culture and every one just goes to work for Nokia (this is of course just extrapolation as there are interesting startups here and there but I feel the general culture isn't that motivating towards innovation).