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Wow really. Do you have a source for that? Because if true, combine that with the facts that - 87% of deaths occur at home and not in ICU [1] - median age of

Wow really. Do you have a source for that? Because if true, combine that with the facts that - 87% of deaths occur at home and not in ICU [1] - median age of deaths is 80 years old [2] Are all deaths just being counted as Covid-19 (without test then)? I think it would be really interesting to compare baseline deaths in February/March from previous years to this one. [1] https://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/cronaca/coronavirus-in-lombardia-9-morti-su-10-mai-giunti-in-terapia-intensiva_16362350-202002a.shtml https://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/cronaca/coronavirus-in-lomba... [2] https://www.epicentro.iss.it/coronavirus/bollettino/Report-COVID-2019_17_marzo-v2.pdf https://www.epicentro.iss.it/coronavirus/bollettino/Report-C...

dakrisht 7y ago
This is another valid point and disturbing point. Italians are most likely counting most if not all deaths as SARS-Cov2 deaths. 1) A large amount of the elderly are going to hospitals because of pre-existing conditions that might be flaring up or presenting as they normally do. They enter the clinic > get complications > get marked down as dying from SARS-Cov2. And/or they acquire hospital acquired pneumonia (HAP). 2) I’ve read the ISS report cover to cover and yes, nearly ALL deaths are due to 1) age greater than 70, 2) 75% showing 2 (two) or more per-existing conditions with a staggering 99% showing 1 (one) or more pre-existing conditions. Let’s not forget the above comment (HAP or other hospital acquired infections from SARS-Cov2, Influenza, whatever). 3) Seeing a death count YOY would be beneficial here indeed. I don’t think ANYBODY will be able to answer my initial question here. There is NO WAY in hell the Italians have tested over 200,000 patients for SARS-Cov2 in a matter of 2-3 weeks due to: 1) such capacity simply does not exist 2) Italians have been under quarantine and when they weren’t they were drinking coffee and not lining up for tests. 3) the time of test > result trajectory > reported data is impossible 4) such high throughout testing capacity simply does not exist Where are these magic numbers coming from? :)
- liqu0rice 7y ago
  > 1) such capacity simply does not exist Germany is able to conduct more than 160,000 tests per week. I do not know the numbers for Italy, but why shouldn't they be able to reach that number over 2-3 weeks?
  - dakrisht 7y ago
    Apples to oranges. Can not compare Italy with Germany. Germans are willingly being tested, there process, order, proactive testing. In Italy everyone is 1) quarantined for the past 2 weeks and 2) didn’t even give a crap about this prior to the quarantine. Italy is triaging, out of hospital space, vastly over estimating numbers, and probably using models with some accuracy to report their numbers. Unless someone can PROVE this otherwise. Their death rate is what it is due to a very elderly population, with 2 or more co-morbidities, in understaffed and overwhelmed hospitals full of chaos, and infection.
- lpinca 7y ago
  > There is NO WAY in hell the Italians have tested over 200,000 patients for SARS-Cov2 in a matter of 2-3 weeks due to See https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/#box_6 https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/#box_6 that graphs shows the number of tampons per day. https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/#box_5 https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/#box_5 total tampons: 233222. The source is the Italian Ministry of Health. Also in Italy, unlike what happens in other countries, all deceased people positive to the test are classified as "Covid deaths", regardless of the simultaneous presence of other serious diseases.
acqq 7y ago
> I think it would be really interesting to compare It is already compared. On https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_I... you can easily see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Is_COVID-19_like_a_flu%3F_ENG.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Is_COVID-19_like_a_flu%3F... and it's not flu and the number of people who can't breathe, have fever and die is orders of magnitude higher.
- dakrisht 7y ago
  I see the data. There is a surge, obviously. However, this assumes the current surge deaths are 100% SARS-Cov2 confirmed infections. They aren’t. At least not 100% Assumption can be made “atypical, bad flu season” but safer bet is on “newly discovered virus out of China that did x and y and z damage over there.” While both theories are just that, theories. There is no empirical data which PROVES x-cases and y-surge is directly related to a confirmed SARS-Cov2 pathogen confirmed by RT-PCR and antibody test. The Italian data is wrong period. Why or how is another debate.
  - diracwasright 7y ago
    All dead patients were tested and they were positive. The Italian ISS is reporting that those patients went full ICU with the most common symptoms associated with Covid-19, notably respiratory failure, then "danno renale acuto", "danno miocardico acuto" and "dovrainfezione", which I'm not going to translate for you, and this is happening regardless of their pre-existing conditions. There's no easy assumption except yours. Stop blaming italian professionals and I invite you to visit our government websites for the details, for which I'm not going to provide a link for you. Also, there is no guessing game as to who is affected by the virus. Again, you need not to mix your prejudice against Italians with the emergency we are having.
    - easytiger 7y ago
      > All dead patients were tested and they were positive Good to hear. Is there an official statement on that? > Also, there is no guessing game as to who is affected by the virus. In what sense do you mean? No guessing about what?

dakrisht 7y ago

This is another valid point and disturbing point. Italians are most likely counting most if not all deaths as SARS-Cov2 deaths. 1) A large amount of the elderly are going to hospitals because of pre-existing conditions that might be flaring up or presenting as they normally do. They enter the clinic > get complications > get marked down as dying from SARS-Cov2. And/or they acquire hospital acquired pneumonia (HAP). 2) I’ve read the ISS report cover to cover and yes, nearly ALL deaths are due to 1) age greater than 70, 2) 75% showing 2 (two) or more per-existing conditions with a staggering 99% showing 1 (one) or more pre-existing conditions. Let’s not forget the above comment (HAP or other hospital acquired infections from SARS-Cov2, Influenza, whatever). 3) Seeing a death count YOY would be beneficial here indeed. I don’t think ANYBODY will be able to answer my initial question here. There is NO WAY in hell the Italians have tested over 200,000 patients for SARS-Cov2 in a matter of 2-3 weeks due to: 1) such capacity simply does not exist 2) Italians have been under quarantine and when they weren’t they were drinking coffee and not lining up for tests. 3) the time of test > result trajectory > reported data is impossible 4) such high throughout testing capacity simply does not exist Where are these magic numbers coming from? :)

liqu0rice 7y ago
> 1) such capacity simply does not exist Germany is able to conduct more than 160,000 tests per week. I do not know the numbers for Italy, but why shouldn't they be able to reach that number over 2-3 weeks?
- dakrisht 7y ago
  Apples to oranges. Can not compare Italy with Germany. Germans are willingly being tested, there process, order, proactive testing. In Italy everyone is 1) quarantined for the past 2 weeks and 2) didn’t even give a crap about this prior to the quarantine. Italy is triaging, out of hospital space, vastly over estimating numbers, and probably using models with some accuracy to report their numbers. Unless someone can PROVE this otherwise. Their death rate is what it is due to a very elderly population, with 2 or more co-morbidities, in understaffed and overwhelmed hospitals full of chaos, and infection.
lpinca 7y ago
> There is NO WAY in hell the Italians have tested over 200,000 patients for SARS-Cov2 in a matter of 2-3 weeks due to See https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/#box_6 https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/#box_6 that graphs shows the number of tampons per day. https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/#box_5 https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/#box_5 total tampons: 233222. The source is the Italian Ministry of Health. Also in Italy, unlike what happens in other countries, all deceased people positive to the test are classified as "Covid deaths", regardless of the simultaneous presence of other serious diseases.

acqq 7y ago

> I think it would be really interesting to compare It is already compared. On https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_I... you can easily see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Is_COVID-19_like_a_flu%3F_ENG.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Is_COVID-19_like_a_flu%3F... and it's not flu and the number of people who can't breathe, have fever and die is orders of magnitude higher.

dakrisht 7y ago
I see the data. There is a surge, obviously. However, this assumes the current surge deaths are 100% SARS-Cov2 confirmed infections. They aren’t. At least not 100% Assumption can be made “atypical, bad flu season” but safer bet is on “newly discovered virus out of China that did x and y and z damage over there.” While both theories are just that, theories. There is no empirical data which PROVES x-cases and y-surge is directly related to a confirmed SARS-Cov2 pathogen confirmed by RT-PCR and antibody test. The Italian data is wrong period. Why or how is another debate.
- diracwasright 7y ago
  All dead patients were tested and they were positive. The Italian ISS is reporting that those patients went full ICU with the most common symptoms associated with Covid-19, notably respiratory failure, then "danno renale acuto", "danno miocardico acuto" and "dovrainfezione", which I'm not going to translate for you, and this is happening regardless of their pre-existing conditions. There's no easy assumption except yours. Stop blaming italian professionals and I invite you to visit our government websites for the details, for which I'm not going to provide a link for you. Also, there is no guessing game as to who is affected by the virus. Again, you need not to mix your prejudice against Italians with the emergency we are having.
  - easytiger 7y ago
    > All dead patients were tested and they were positive Good to hear. Is there an official statement on that? > Also, there is no guessing game as to who is affected by the virus. In what sense do you mean? No guessing about what?