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I know permadeath is a core mechanic of roguelikes, but I absolutely hate it. It's an artificial time waster. Imagine trying to learn a piano piece, but instea

by umvi 7y ago

I know permadeath is a core mechanic of roguelikes, but I absolutely hate it. It's an artificial time waster. Imagine trying to learn a piano piece, but instead of being able to practice the hard parts over and over until you've mastered them, you always have to restart from the very beginning at the first mistake. Net result: you get extremely good at the beginning, to the point that it's boring, and you always get whooped by the hard part because you barely ever get to practice it (you have to sink an hour doing easy stuff just to get 5 seconds practicing the hard stuff)

the5dysfunction 7y ago
All video games are an artificial time waster. You either get roguelikes or you don't. You clearly don't. Let's take your analogy and flip it around: Imagine trying to play a game, but instead of a logical progression with consequences, you can just pick it up from whatever point you like. If you die, it doesn't matter. You can just completely skip over that part and head to the next. In fact you can begin the game at the final boss if you want. Net result: you get extremely good at nothing to the point that it's boring because you never have to practice or repeat a single thing.
- umvi 7y ago
  I get roguelikes, but as my life has gotten more time constrained, I've grown less tolerant of shenanigans like permadeath that artificially prevent me from practicing and mastering the parts of the game I'm weakest at, instead making me sink most of my time into the parts of the game I've already mastered. I'm not saying get rid of permadeath, I'm saying make it optional like Hollow Knight, IWtbTG, or any numerous other games where time constrained people can use save points to master the game mechanics more quickly, and kids with infinite time can play permadeath mode to their heart's content.
- Teckla 7y ago
  All video games are an artificial time waster. I couldn't disagree more. It depends on the video game, but a lot of them really get the brain working hard. And it's simply impossible for most people to be purely "productive" all the time. Video games are a great way to break from the grind but keep the brain engaged in something more challenging than, for example, watching TV. You either get roguelikes or you don't. You clearly don't. Once again, I couldn't disagree more. I've played Rogue-likes for more decades than I care to remember, and I "save file scum" to avoid perma-death. Sure, some individuals might "cheat" and jump to the "conclusion" of the game quickly, but that's their problem. I don't care to repeat the same beginning of a game over and over (and over and over). It's just repetitive and annoying.
freepor 7y ago
The flipside is the instant save points like in a NES emulator where because you can restore the stakes are so low. If it's a game where you can avoid death by careful enough play, then it can be fun to have real stakes (time and boredom) at work. Like betting a lot of money in poker.
aww_dang 7y ago
Personally, I like permadeath. It makes the game more thrilling. I understand your view, and that's why I added extra lives as an option for my players.
- umvi 7y ago
  I like permadeath too, but only after I've already mastered the game. Like golden strawberries in Celeste or Steel mode in Hollow Knight.
seangrogg 7y ago
While this is very true of roguelikes it is not absent from other genres as well. In MMOs it is common to deal with boss mechanics of increasing difficulty with a reset should the party wipe. Some MMO developers try to curb this somewhat by having the difficulty climax around the middle rather than the end. Technical games often have this as well, with games like DDR and Guitar Hero having some sets of songs that have lengthy intros only to suddenly get hit with the difficult segment later. Think Freebird. Nothing wrong with disliking the mechanic, though. It's a common-enough dislike that it's spawned the rogue-lite genre where you still need to go through "the slog" but you accrue things from all of your previous (mis)adventures over time such that the early bits often go by faster (or can be muted/ignored).
- umvi 7y ago
  > Technical games often have this as well, with games like DDR and Guitar Hero Excellent example. Though I think in later versions of guitar hero they added a "practice mode" where you could practice the difficult segments in isolation
  - seangrogg 7y ago
    Indeed they do now! I do wish some of the MMO encounters I deal with had these practice modes so we could practice the difficult parts of encounters without needing to do multi-minute preludes every wipe.
nmarriott 7y ago
Angband has a cheat death option, I usually play with it on. Of course I try very hard not to die, but I enjoy the game more if I don't have to start again if I make a mistake. There are so many parts to the game, permanent death is only one and I'm happy enough playing without it.
grawprog 7y ago
>Net result: you get extremely good at the beginning, to the point that it's boring, and you always get whooped by the hard part because you barely ever get to practice That's what I used to think, and I agree, some not so good roguelikes feel like that no matter how far you get, more of a roguelite, but I find rogue legacy is bad for that, but the good ones i've enjoyed tend to be rich in mechanics that you slowly master with each failure. The point of roguelikes isn't the same as most action/adventure/rpg whatever games. It isn't about memorizing and mastering the levels, but about memorizing and mastering the mechanics of the game itself. Sure there'll be some cheapshots, out of balance levels, and just plain lousy runs, but the more you play, the more you learn hoe to be good and you get further or play better on successive runs. I do agree though, I like the idea of some kind of permanent progression between runs, I think that would solve some of the permadeath pointlessness feeling, i've seen some games do it alright, but none have really been that great. The consequences for failure still tend to be too high and it ends up making it feel like even more of a grind...rogue legacy comes to mind again... Personally, i've been thinking of some kind of hybrid between lufia 2's ancient cave dungeons with an item system like diablo's would make for an interesting change up. Have certain rare chests that contain maybe items and maybe spells or something that last permanently between runs if you make it to a certain level or something, so while you'd be repeating from the beginning, you'd be starting a little more well equipped as you progress.
mrtweetyhack 7y ago
In DCSS, there is permadeath but you can hack it by making a copy of your gameplay or killing the process right before you die.
iamthemonster 7y ago
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup has an interesting approach to this in that (for many character builds) the start of the game is equally dangerous as any other part. It also has boss fights scattered throughout so you can never just drift through; you are always worried that around the next corner there will be a regal teleporting giant frog, or a feline wizard with nine lives, or a brother-and-sister duo where the death of one sibling provokes a grief-induced rampage in the other.

by umvi 7y ago

the5dysfunction 7y ago

All video games are an artificial time waster. You either get roguelikes or you don't. You clearly don't. Let's take your analogy and flip it around: Imagine trying to play a game, but instead of a logical progression with consequences, you can just pick it up from whatever point you like. If you die, it doesn't matter. You can just completely skip over that part and head to the next. In fact you can begin the game at the final boss if you want. Net result: you get extremely good at nothing to the point that it's boring because you never have to practice or repeat a single thing.

umvi 7y ago
I get roguelikes, but as my life has gotten more time constrained, I've grown less tolerant of shenanigans like permadeath that artificially prevent me from practicing and mastering the parts of the game I'm weakest at, instead making me sink most of my time into the parts of the game I've already mastered. I'm not saying get rid of permadeath, I'm saying make it optional like Hollow Knight, IWtbTG, or any numerous other games where time constrained people can use save points to master the game mechanics more quickly, and kids with infinite time can play permadeath mode to their heart's content.
Teckla 7y ago
All video games are an artificial time waster. I couldn't disagree more. It depends on the video game, but a lot of them really get the brain working hard. And it's simply impossible for most people to be purely "productive" all the time. Video games are a great way to break from the grind but keep the brain engaged in something more challenging than, for example, watching TV. You either get roguelikes or you don't. You clearly don't. Once again, I couldn't disagree more. I've played Rogue-likes for more decades than I care to remember, and I "save file scum" to avoid perma-death. Sure, some individuals might "cheat" and jump to the "conclusion" of the game quickly, but that's their problem. I don't care to repeat the same beginning of a game over and over (and over and over). It's just repetitive and annoying.

freepor 7y ago

The flipside is the instant save points like in a NES emulator where because you can restore the stakes are so low. If it's a game where you can avoid death by careful enough play, then it can be fun to have real stakes (time and boredom) at work. Like betting a lot of money in poker.

aww_dang 7y ago

Personally, I like permadeath. It makes the game more thrilling. I understand your view, and that's why I added extra lives as an option for my players.

umvi 7y ago
I like permadeath too, but only after I've already mastered the game. Like golden strawberries in Celeste or Steel mode in Hollow Knight.

seangrogg 7y ago

While this is very true of roguelikes it is not absent from other genres as well. In MMOs it is common to deal with boss mechanics of increasing difficulty with a reset should the party wipe. Some MMO developers try to curb this somewhat by having the difficulty climax around the middle rather than the end. Technical games often have this as well, with games like DDR and Guitar Hero having some sets of songs that have lengthy intros only to suddenly get hit with the difficult segment later. Think Freebird. Nothing wrong with disliking the mechanic, though. It's a common-enough dislike that it's spawned the rogue-lite genre where you still need to go through "the slog" but you accrue things from all of your previous (mis)adventures over time such that the early bits often go by faster (or can be muted/ignored).

umvi 7y ago
> Technical games often have this as well, with games like DDR and Guitar Hero Excellent example. Though I think in later versions of guitar hero they added a "practice mode" where you could practice the difficult segments in isolation
- seangrogg 7y ago
  Indeed they do now! I do wish some of the MMO encounters I deal with had these practice modes so we could practice the difficult parts of encounters without needing to do multi-minute preludes every wipe.

nmarriott 7y ago

Angband has a cheat death option, I usually play with it on. Of course I try very hard not to die, but I enjoy the game more if I don't have to start again if I make a mistake. There are so many parts to the game, permanent death is only one and I'm happy enough playing without it.

grawprog 7y ago

>Net result: you get extremely good at the beginning, to the point that it's boring, and you always get whooped by the hard part because you barely ever get to practice That's what I used to think, and I agree, some not so good roguelikes feel like that no matter how far you get, more of a roguelite, but I find rogue legacy is bad for that, but the good ones i've enjoyed tend to be rich in mechanics that you slowly master with each failure. The point of roguelikes isn't the same as most action/adventure/rpg whatever games. It isn't about memorizing and mastering the levels, but about memorizing and mastering the mechanics of the game itself. Sure there'll be some cheapshots, out of balance levels, and just plain lousy runs, but the more you play, the more you learn hoe to be good and you get further or play better on successive runs. I do agree though, I like the idea of some kind of permanent progression between runs, I think that would solve some of the permadeath pointlessness feeling, i've seen some games do it alright, but none have really been that great. The consequences for failure still tend to be too high and it ends up making it feel like even more of a grind...rogue legacy comes to mind again... Personally, i've been thinking of some kind of hybrid between lufia 2's ancient cave dungeons with an item system like diablo's would make for an interesting change up. Have certain rare chests that contain maybe items and maybe spells or something that last permanently between runs if you make it to a certain level or something, so while you'd be repeating from the beginning, you'd be starting a little more well equipped as you progress.

mrtweetyhack 7y ago

In DCSS, there is permadeath but you can hack it by making a copy of your gameplay or killing the process right before you die.

iamthemonster 7y ago

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup has an interesting approach to this in that (for many character builds) the start of the game is equally dangerous as any other part. It also has boss fights scattered throughout so you can never just drift through; you are always worried that around the next corner there will be a regal teleporting giant frog, or a feline wizard with nine lives, or a brother-and-sister duo where the death of one sibling provokes a grief-induced rampage in the other.