7 ms·

My understanding is this is being used to try to dismantle Title IX (Devos and company are against it). The article shows a very troubling abuse of the system,

My understanding is this is being used to try to dismantle Title IX (Devos and company are against it). The article shows a very troubling abuse of the system, but it should be a prompt to fix it rather than destroy it.

Chris2048 7y ago
But why do universities get special treatment in the first place?
- strstr 7y ago
  Probably the mix of 1) Ubiquitous government funding 2) Student-teacher power asymmetry 3) Strength of tenure
  - Chris2048 7y ago
    But Title IX also applies to student-to-student claims, doesn't it?
  - manfredo 7y ago
    The same could be said of a plethora of other industries that are government funded. Defense contractors, utilities, etc. Furthermore, the last two points would make sense if Title IX only applied to teachers. But that's not the case. Even between students Title IX still applies.
strstr 7y ago
From the article, it does not sound like much needs to change to prevent abuse of this level. Requirements of at least one non-anonymous source would do it. Dismantlement seems pretty unnecessary.
downerending 7y ago
Why? Universities don't really want to act as a parallel judicial system, and it turns out that they're not very good at it. We have real laws and courts. Let them work.
- virtuous_signal 7y ago
  I see this sentiment expressed a lot, but I can think of edge cases where it fails. One case is regular sexual harrassment from a peer (say 2 students in a class). It's not technically a crime, but it's easy to see that the educational experience of the victim is worsened. In that case, I would say it's the university's responsibility to investigate and step in.
- HarryHirsch 7y ago
  Good luck with that. We had an attempted rape on campus. The suspect was from a well-connected local family and consequently the charges were dismissed. The local fishwrapper even published a correction to the weekly police report. Thankfully we have the parallel system and don't have to deal with that student any longer.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    How can you be so sure the parallel system got it right? Were you a witness? Were you presented with the evidence as a jury would be?
    - HarryHirsch 7y ago
      My wife was a witness to the crying victim. I merely caught the fellow filming women's arses on his phone during class.
      - viklove 7y ago
        Neither of these things prove rape...
  - belorn 7y ago
    I fully understand why people don't want to use the legal system. Using national data, the resolve rate here for basically anything is in the single digit. If you get robbed, assaulted, home invaded, harassed, sexual harassed, threatened, defrauded, or are victim of any of a very long list of different crimes, your time is likely better spent doing something else then report a crime. The biggest reason to file a report is to give the government data that a problem exist, rather than expecting any resolution. Personally I have made three such reports, including two home invasions, and it is not hard to guess how many have ended up in court. In order to fix this we could change the law and the legal system to push the resolve rate up, but there is many good reasons why society have chosen not to do that. Parallel system is much easier as long the right persons get targeted.
virtuous_signal 7y ago
The matter is not as simple as "Devos is against it, so we must support it"; also one could say recent revisions aren't attempts to "dismantle" it. Criticism has come from all sides: AAUP: https://www.aaup.org/article/trouble-title-ix https://www.aaup.org/article/trouble-title-ix Harvard Law: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/9/1/law-faculty-title-ix/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/9/1/law-faculty-titl... More law professors: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/05/17/professors-urge-department-education-revise-sexual-assault-guidance https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/05/17/professors-ur...
- pstuart 7y ago
  Again, I'm all for fixing what is broken and it appears to be broken. This current administration engenders no trust in me, but I'm open to rare possibilities of them doing something right on rare occasion.
manfredo 7y ago
I don't think DeVos wants to (or even can) repeal Title IX. I think her proposed changes are limited to the "Dear Colleague" letter sent by Obama which, among other things, mandated that colleges use a preponderance of evidence standard rather than clear and convincing or beyond a reasonable doubt.

Chris2048 7y ago

But why do universities get special treatment in the first place?

strstr 7y ago
Probably the mix of 1) Ubiquitous government funding 2) Student-teacher power asymmetry 3) Strength of tenure
- Chris2048 7y ago
  But Title IX also applies to student-to-student claims, doesn't it?
- manfredo 7y ago
  The same could be said of a plethora of other industries that are government funded. Defense contractors, utilities, etc. Furthermore, the last two points would make sense if Title IX only applied to teachers. But that's not the case. Even between students Title IX still applies.

strstr 7y ago

From the article, it does not sound like much needs to change to prevent abuse of this level. Requirements of at least one non-anonymous source would do it. Dismantlement seems pretty unnecessary.

downerending 7y ago

Why? Universities don't really want to act as a parallel judicial system, and it turns out that they're not very good at it. We have real laws and courts. Let them work.

virtuous_signal 7y ago
I see this sentiment expressed a lot, but I can think of edge cases where it fails. One case is regular sexual harrassment from a peer (say 2 students in a class). It's not technically a crime, but it's easy to see that the educational experience of the victim is worsened. In that case, I would say it's the university's responsibility to investigate and step in.
HarryHirsch 7y ago
Good luck with that. We had an attempted rape on campus. The suspect was from a well-connected local family and consequently the charges were dismissed. The local fishwrapper even published a correction to the weekly police report. Thankfully we have the parallel system and don't have to deal with that student any longer.
- catalogia 7y ago
  How can you be so sure the parallel system got it right? Were you a witness? Were you presented with the evidence as a jury would be?
  - HarryHirsch 7y ago
    My wife was a witness to the crying victim. I merely caught the fellow filming women's arses on his phone during class.
    - viklove 7y ago
      Neither of these things prove rape...
- belorn 7y ago
  I fully understand why people don't want to use the legal system. Using national data, the resolve rate here for basically anything is in the single digit. If you get robbed, assaulted, home invaded, harassed, sexual harassed, threatened, defrauded, or are victim of any of a very long list of different crimes, your time is likely better spent doing something else then report a crime. The biggest reason to file a report is to give the government data that a problem exist, rather than expecting any resolution. Personally I have made three such reports, including two home invasions, and it is not hard to guess how many have ended up in court. In order to fix this we could change the law and the legal system to push the resolve rate up, but there is many good reasons why society have chosen not to do that. Parallel system is much easier as long the right persons get targeted.

virtuous_signal 7y ago

The matter is not as simple as "Devos is against it, so we must support it"; also one could say recent revisions aren't attempts to "dismantle" it. Criticism has come from all sides: AAUP: https://www.aaup.org/article/trouble-title-ix https://www.aaup.org/article/trouble-title-ix Harvard Law: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/9/1/law-faculty-title-ix/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/9/1/law-faculty-titl... More law professors: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/05/17/professors-urge-department-education-revise-sexual-assault-guidance https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/05/17/professors-ur...

pstuart 7y ago
Again, I'm all for fixing what is broken and it appears to be broken. This current administration engenders no trust in me, but I'm open to rare possibilities of them doing something right on rare occasion.

manfredo 7y ago

I don't think DeVos wants to (or even can) repeal Title IX. I think her proposed changes are limited to the "Dear Colleague" letter sent by Obama which, among other things, mandated that colleges use a preponderance of evidence standard rather than clear and convincing or beyond a reasonable doubt.