7 ms·

Striking in order to exploit a global disaster for personal gain would be a great way for organized labor to turn many people against them for a life time. It m

by seneca 7y ago

Striking in order to exploit a global disaster for personal gain would be a great way for organized labor to turn many people against them for a life time. It may work in the short term, but even that is debatable. Many people would gladly see the national guard break a strike if it's between them and basic essentials. Long term, the optics of that kind of move are so damning that it would likely be a net-loss.

bdefore 7y ago
Depends on the spin. Couldn't you argue this is exploitation of the health of desperate low-paid workers, their family and their communities?
- seneca 7y ago
  > Couldn't you argue this is exploitation of the health of desperate low-paid workers, their family and their communities? Giving people a raise to incentivize them to voluntarily work to supply resources people desperately need is pretty difficult to spin into exploitation. Many people are out there volunteering to do such things for free because they understand how badly it's needed. I suspect those likely to be sympathetic to that line made up their minds about such things long before this event. I do agree with you that some folks will definitely try that angle though.
  - bdefore 7y ago
    I acknowledge that asking for increased wages may not pitch well. Perhaps the more effective angle is for strikers to demand all health expenses these workers incur during this time be covered.
- realpolitik0 7y ago
  Yes, you could argue that; thereafter, the overwhelming majority of people indifferent to worker conditions in the gig-delivery supply chain would then notice, rather acutely, when their preparedness meter inches toward zero. If we were living in a world where they then took time to study the issue and hear your argument, we may arrive at your outcome. Since we are not, more accurately, when people and politicians fresh out of toilet paper snap assess their dilemma and are conveniently presented with a picket line to blame in the media, we arrive at the unpleasant outcome being forecast for you. (I would argue a worse one.) Negative consequences of Internet supply chain worker organization right now are a certainty due to intense delivery demand (the IKEA cart is barely functional today), and those optics are an element of the gig/delivery economic equation which I don’t think anyone has thought about until now. That economic model promised to somewhat free the worker and, quite predictably given its proponents, instead seems to have done the opposite. More than ever before, workers are essential to survival. Striking isn’t just the UAW setting back 2022 Fords a bit, these days. Organizational actions have very, very real potential to collapse parts of the intertwined economy under these circumstances. We will need to consider that reality on the other side of the pandemic but you do not want to so much as blow on the world economy right now. There is a mountain of latent panic waiting for the excuse you’d hand it to organize and manifest. Important: I’m not saying it’s “right,” just illustrating political and economic realities which make selecting the next move carefully all that more crucial. The entire planet is on a razor’s edge, and if you’re keen to dismiss my position as irrational, organize an Amazon walkout.
- nerfhammer 7y ago
  As everyone notices their packages stop arriving, comparatively few will buy into the idea that people making $17/hr are being 'exploited', especially as many people find their own working hours being reduced or eliminated.
  - srtjstjsj 7y ago
    People making $16/hr aren't the ones living on Amazon Prime package flow.
    - kortilla 7y ago
      Yes they are. A married couple each making that wage puts them right around the average household income in the US. Amazon got big by catering to the average household.
    - dahfizz 7y ago
      If you've ever wondered if you're out of touch and in your own echo chamber, you definitely are.
  - Klinky 7y ago
    That sounds like a side effect of the gig economy, job insecurity, and a lack of safety nets, so it's all just a race to the bottom for laborers.
Reedx 7y ago
There are already enough people unemployed just over the past week that would fill those jobs in a heartbeat... I'm not sure it's understood yet what kind of devastation is unfolding with small businesses, which make up ~50% of the workforce.
- Frost1x 7y ago
  This is going to have long term lasting effects that further suppress labor rates and further concentrate wealth/capital in the US. It's accelerating a problem we already had.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    40% of the wealth in the stock market was wiped out over the last few weeks which drastically impacts the upper middle class and rich the most. Negative returns on capital do not promote wealth inequality.
    - chiefalchemist 7y ago
      Yes. But that's simply in the short term. A good number of these people have reserves that allow them to buy back in. In the short term, the middle to the bottom lose as well. But since they can't buy back in their piece of the pie falls into the hands of those that can. Like 2007/2008 this will ultimately result in a massive transfer from the Have-less to the Have-more. For example, small businesses will close and Amazon will pick up that slack. Easily.
      - cobookman 7y ago
        they can trade on margin. Making use of low interest rates. So when the market recovers, which it will. They can see greater gains. with fed interest rate at 0%. I’m sure the 0.01% can get incredibly favorable loans against their assets to double down.
        chiefalchemist 7y ago
Klinky 7y ago
Is Amazon only delivering basic essentials at a fixed cost? Where is this list of basic essentials that Amazon is so charitably ensuring the prompt delivery of?
- ev1 7y ago
  At least for me, Fresh/Primenow is effectively the _only_ way I can get food (or many other basics, like laundry detergent). I do not have a vehicle (mandatory for size/curbside pickup at any supermarket) and I am immunocompromised. I cannot fight the crowds at Costco or carry Costco-sized bulk packages home. In the past I happily walk a mile or two each way to get groceries for the day, or ride the bus, but this is no longer feasible. I try to tip 15-20$ or more on my usual order. With Fresh, you cannot order random unessential garbage -- just fruit/veg/food and some things like toothpaste, detergent, paracetamol. The cost is fixed at 4.99$ to 9.99$ + tip per trip. Many items like regular Amazon packages no longer meet the Prime 2 Day guarantee and routinely are marked as "arrives 1-2 weeks" now.
Apocryphon 7y ago
Happened in World War II, and that’s why health insurance in the U.S. is tied to employers.
- pjc50 7y ago
  Could you expand on this bit of history please?
  - abrowne 7y ago
    The Real Reason the U.S. Has Employer-Sponsored Health Insurance: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/upshot/the-real-reason-the-us-has-employer-sponsored-health-insurance.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/upshot/the-real-reason-th...
ClumsyPilot 7y ago
These people are in an overcrowded warehouse, without proper protection, while we are self-isolating. In these trying times, I would value my health higher than that.

by seneca 7y ago

bdefore 7y ago

Depends on the spin. Couldn't you argue this is exploitation of the health of desperate low-paid workers, their family and their communities?

seneca 7y ago
> Couldn't you argue this is exploitation of the health of desperate low-paid workers, their family and their communities? Giving people a raise to incentivize them to voluntarily work to supply resources people desperately need is pretty difficult to spin into exploitation. Many people are out there volunteering to do such things for free because they understand how badly it's needed. I suspect those likely to be sympathetic to that line made up their minds about such things long before this event. I do agree with you that some folks will definitely try that angle though.
- bdefore 7y ago
  I acknowledge that asking for increased wages may not pitch well. Perhaps the more effective angle is for strikers to demand all health expenses these workers incur during this time be covered.
realpolitik0 7y ago
Yes, you could argue that; thereafter, the overwhelming majority of people indifferent to worker conditions in the gig-delivery supply chain would then notice, rather acutely, when their preparedness meter inches toward zero. If we were living in a world where they then took time to study the issue and hear your argument, we may arrive at your outcome. Since we are not, more accurately, when people and politicians fresh out of toilet paper snap assess their dilemma and are conveniently presented with a picket line to blame in the media, we arrive at the unpleasant outcome being forecast for you. (I would argue a worse one.) Negative consequences of Internet supply chain worker organization right now are a certainty due to intense delivery demand (the IKEA cart is barely functional today), and those optics are an element of the gig/delivery economic equation which I don’t think anyone has thought about until now. That economic model promised to somewhat free the worker and, quite predictably given its proponents, instead seems to have done the opposite. More than ever before, workers are essential to survival. Striking isn’t just the UAW setting back 2022 Fords a bit, these days. Organizational actions have very, very real potential to collapse parts of the intertwined economy under these circumstances. We will need to consider that reality on the other side of the pandemic but you do not want to so much as blow on the world economy right now. There is a mountain of latent panic waiting for the excuse you’d hand it to organize and manifest. Important: I’m not saying it’s “right,” just illustrating political and economic realities which make selecting the next move carefully all that more crucial. The entire planet is on a razor’s edge, and if you’re keen to dismiss my position as irrational, organize an Amazon walkout.
nerfhammer 7y ago
As everyone notices their packages stop arriving, comparatively few will buy into the idea that people making $17/hr are being 'exploited', especially as many people find their own working hours being reduced or eliminated.
- srtjstjsj 7y ago
  People making $16/hr aren't the ones living on Amazon Prime package flow.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    Yes they are. A married couple each making that wage puts them right around the average household income in the US. Amazon got big by catering to the average household.
  - dahfizz 7y ago
    If you've ever wondered if you're out of touch and in your own echo chamber, you definitely are.
- Klinky 7y ago
  That sounds like a side effect of the gig economy, job insecurity, and a lack of safety nets, so it's all just a race to the bottom for laborers.

Reedx 7y ago

There are already enough people unemployed just over the past week that would fill those jobs in a heartbeat... I'm not sure it's understood yet what kind of devastation is unfolding with small businesses, which make up ~50% of the workforce.

Frost1x 7y ago
This is going to have long term lasting effects that further suppress labor rates and further concentrate wealth/capital in the US. It's accelerating a problem we already had.
- kortilla 7y ago
  40% of the wealth in the stock market was wiped out over the last few weeks which drastically impacts the upper middle class and rich the most. Negative returns on capital do not promote wealth inequality.
  - chiefalchemist 7y ago
    Yes. But that's simply in the short term. A good number of these people have reserves that allow them to buy back in. In the short term, the middle to the bottom lose as well. But since they can't buy back in their piece of the pie falls into the hands of those that can. Like 2007/2008 this will ultimately result in a massive transfer from the Have-less to the Have-more. For example, small businesses will close and Amazon will pick up that slack. Easily.
    - cobookman 7y ago
      they can trade on margin. Making use of low interest rates. So when the market recovers, which it will. They can see greater gains. with fed interest rate at 0%. I’m sure the 0.01% can get incredibly favorable loans against their assets to double down.
      - chiefalchemist 7y ago

Klinky 7y ago

Is Amazon only delivering basic essentials at a fixed cost? Where is this list of basic essentials that Amazon is so charitably ensuring the prompt delivery of?

ev1 7y ago
At least for me, Fresh/Primenow is effectively the _only_ way I can get food (or many other basics, like laundry detergent). I do not have a vehicle (mandatory for size/curbside pickup at any supermarket) and I am immunocompromised. I cannot fight the crowds at Costco or carry Costco-sized bulk packages home. In the past I happily walk a mile or two each way to get groceries for the day, or ride the bus, but this is no longer feasible. I try to tip 15-20$ or more on my usual order. With Fresh, you cannot order random unessential garbage -- just fruit/veg/food and some things like toothpaste, detergent, paracetamol. The cost is fixed at 4.99$ to 9.99$ + tip per trip. Many items like regular Amazon packages no longer meet the Prime 2 Day guarantee and routinely are marked as "arrives 1-2 weeks" now.

Apocryphon 7y ago

Happened in World War II, and that’s why health insurance in the U.S. is tied to employers.

pjc50 7y ago
Could you expand on this bit of history please?
- abrowne 7y ago
  The Real Reason the U.S. Has Employer-Sponsored Health Insurance: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/upshot/the-real-reason-the-us-has-employer-sponsored-health-insurance.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/05/upshot/the-real-reason-th...

ClumsyPilot 7y ago

These people are in an overcrowded warehouse, without proper protection, while we are self-isolating. In these trying times, I would value my health higher than that.