6 ms·

Kogito – Cloud-based business automation platform

65 points by based2 7y ago

znpy 7y ago
the name sounds a lot like "cogito" by ExpertSystem
- logosmonkey 7y ago
  Epic EMR also uses Cogito as part of their branding.
fulafel 7y ago
What does it do? Business automation platform sounds very nonspecific.
- evacchi 7y ago
  Full disclosure: I work on Kogito. This is a "rethinking" of our traditional engines (Drools, jBPM, OptaPlanner) especially meant for containerized/k8s/lightweight deployment, with support for native compilation through Quarkus. Also you may want to take a look at our fresh new editors: they are available as VSCode extension, Chrome extension and stand-alone via bpmn.new and dmn.new :)
  - tappio 7y ago
    I came across Kogito some days ago as I was looking into some alternatives for our drools based engine. I'd like to build some kind of online editor for business people to manage drm rules easily. How would one go about doing something like that with Kogito?
    - evacchi 7y ago
      our online editors + a ci/cd pipeline to build Kogito services would be great. The `kogito` cli can be used to get that kind of workflow -- you can point it to a git repo with, say, a BPMN or DMN file and get a working service out of that ( well bugs aside :^) -- it's all very in flux ) take a peek here https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-cloud-operator#deploying-a-new-service https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-cloud-operator#deploying-... we are updating, reorganizing and refreshing our documentation :)
    - victor106 7y ago
      This is the exact use case we have as well. We tried business central but it seemed too heavy and it was hard to develop a streamlined experience for the users so we had to drop it. Looking for a more lightweight solution. Will definitely check this out
    - ceeker 7y ago
      Could you please share your reasons for looking at alternatives to Drools? I am in the process of evaluating Drools and it will be great to understand why people move away from it.
      - tappio 7y ago
        "Looking for alternatives" was maybe a bit too much. As far I understood these are built pretty much on the same core? So using the same rule sets should work on Kogito too. We recently moved to micro services and I'd like to have the editor as part of another service instead of kie workbench so I've been looking around for ways to accomplish that.
        evacchi 7y ago
        you should look into our new tooling https://kiegroup.github.io/kogito-online/#/ https://kiegroup.github.io/kogito-online/#/ also, yes: Kogito is still based on Drools for the rules part
  - tlarkworthy 7y ago
    I managed to get Camunda in a severless deployment: https://www.futurice.com/blog/serverless-camunda-terraform-recipe-using-cloud-run-and-cloud-sql https://www.futurice.com/blog/serverless-camunda-terraform-r... Online demo https://camunda-flxotk3pnq-ew.a.run.app/camunda-welcome/index.html https://camunda-flxotk3pnq-ew.a.run.app/camunda-welcome/inde... I'll checkout kogito, I want something that connects with pubsub for a push workflow better
    - evacchi 7y ago
      look at our quickstarts, we support Kafka https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-examples#kogito-with-kafka https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-examples#kogito-with-kafk...
  - MrSaints 7y ago
    There's a relatively new one by Camunda (https://zeebe.io/ https://zeebe.io/) that also works quite well in cloud native environments.
  - gavinray 7y ago
    That sounds incredible. I have no experience with Java/JVM, but found OptaPlanner online and immediately had a usecase for it. Spent a weekend trying to get through it's documentation and example code, it was so heavy and complicated that I couldn't even get a basic concept or learning exercise written by myself. Reached out on their IRC, and it was dead. Will definitely be taking a look at this!
    - ge0ffrey 7y ago
      Try our new guide that builds a REST service from scratch for highschool timetabling optimization: https://quarkus.io/guides/optaplanner https://quarkus.io/guides/optaplanner Yes, the IRC channel is dead - I 'll remove that link from the site. StackOverflow and our google group are very much alive.
- salawat 7y ago
  Likely a rules engine bundled with some form of business process management/modeling tool. The rules engine is used to constrain/model the edges (transitions) of the overall graph of states within your overall business workflow finite state machine. This is generally implemented by throwing said rules engine at reams of data in the form of data validation, and inferring information from the various contexts that make up a system. It's usually quite boring. Once you've seen a few, you've basically seen them all. The only differences boil down to the specifics of the industry, data model, and implementation of your basic frameworks. In actual businesses there's basically maybe 4 actual software buckets that just about everything seems to end up degenerating to. BPMA(Business Process Management/Automation, I.e. case/customer relation management, stuff related to doing business as a whole), OLTP (On-Line Transaction Processing; how you get data in), AADPETLR (Accounting, Auditing, Data Processing, Extraction, Transformation, Loading, and Reporting; what you do with all that juicy data you've collected). All of those as I understand it may tend to end up getting combined into something called an ERP, (Enterprise Resource... Platform, I think?) Having worked on most individual parts at one point, it's a bloody drag reimplementing the same thing over and over again in different wrappers this time. It is, however, the glue that makes basically any modern business work. The funny bit is how pretty much everyone does the same bloody thing, but bends over backwards to protect info with regards to who they are doing/sharing it with; even from their own employees.
etxm 7y ago
You’ve got to update your marketing page with some examples besides a small diagram and some java class names. I had to get all the way to mentioning drools before I knew WTF Kogito did. BTW rules[1] is pretty good. [1] https://github.com/jruizgit/rules https://github.com/jruizgit/rules
- evacchi 7y ago
  We know. We are doing our best to update the docs and website, we will publish something better soon. In the meantime you can have a look at our blogs (e.g. http://blog.athico.com/ http://blog.athico.com/) and our examples https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-examples https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-examples this deep dive is also a nice overview of the project (also yay I am there) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBkX6v57Jbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBkX6v57Jbo
pachico 7y ago
It really strikes me how many times new products fail to describe efficiently what they do. It often seems they're explaining what the project/service does to someone who already knows it rather than to someone who just landed on their website. Many Apache products lack of proper explanation, in my opinion. Some times even AWS services. Well, it could be I'm bad at understanding their explanation. Am I the only one thinking this?
- pachico 7y ago
  I hope you guys at Kogito take this in a constructive way. For instance, once you want to know more and you read "examples", as user, I want to fully understand what does it do! Instead, I find a link to https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-examples/releases https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-examples/releases . I have no doubt your software is amazing, I just would like you to help me understand what it does and if it suits me. :)
  - evacchi 7y ago
    we will! We are currently working on making our documentation and getting started experience more accessible. We welcome constructive feedback like this :)
- mxuribe 7y ago
  You are not alone. Many amazing groups fail to properly communicate and describe what they do/offer.
- ericol 7y ago
  Funny enough, this happens in my company. We have two products in market. An "old" one (that actually paid the bills for a looong time). And another, newer one that was supposed to replace the old one way to long ago as well (That didn't happen yet, but to be honest... it's complicated). Every time I was shown what the new product does, it was a demonstration of how it works, related to the old one. The question "what does this product provides to our customers that the old one doesn't" hasn't been answered in years. Epilogue: Couple years back we got a beast of a sales man, and he's shoving the new product down the customers throat as if it was heroin laced candy. I'm not complaining, but would we had dedicated the dev time to the old product, we would probably be a main competitor in our market.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ceeker 7y ago
In case people from this project are still checking this thread. I am actually looking into Drools at this moment so the timing cannot be better... I have a few questions: 1. Is this a new skin/interface for existing tools like Drools / jBPM or re-implementing that functionality? 1a. If new skin: is it fair to say, once the business application is built (there maybe bugs along the way due to the stage of this project), since the foundation is Drools / jBPM, we can expect production quality that we would expect out of Drools/jBPM? 2. What is the KIE Group? Is this owned by Redhat? It is very hard to tell by reading the footer. 3. Does the team provide consulting services to use these tools for an enterprise adoption?
- evacchi 7y ago
  1. it's both :) we're keeping a lot of the features in place but we are taking the chance to renew some parts and drop or redesign some 2. KIE (Knowledge Is Everything) is the collective name of the development group that works on Kogito/Drools/jBPM/OptaPlanner. It's not a legal entity so it's not technically "owned" by RH, but the majority of us work for RH 3. RH provides subscription services and consulting

65 points by based2 7y ago

znpy 7y ago

the name sounds a lot like "cogito" by ExpertSystem

logosmonkey 7y ago
Epic EMR also uses Cogito as part of their branding.

fulafel 7y ago

What does it do? Business automation platform sounds very nonspecific.

evacchi 7y ago
Full disclosure: I work on Kogito. This is a "rethinking" of our traditional engines (Drools, jBPM, OptaPlanner) especially meant for containerized/k8s/lightweight deployment, with support for native compilation through Quarkus. Also you may want to take a look at our fresh new editors: they are available as VSCode extension, Chrome extension and stand-alone via bpmn.new and dmn.new :)
- tappio 7y ago
  I came across Kogito some days ago as I was looking into some alternatives for our drools based engine. I'd like to build some kind of online editor for business people to manage drm rules easily. How would one go about doing something like that with Kogito?
  - evacchi 7y ago
    our online editors + a ci/cd pipeline to build Kogito services would be great. The `kogito` cli can be used to get that kind of workflow -- you can point it to a git repo with, say, a BPMN or DMN file and get a working service out of that ( well bugs aside :^) -- it's all very in flux ) take a peek here https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-cloud-operator#deploying-a-new-service https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-cloud-operator#deploying-... we are updating, reorganizing and refreshing our documentation :)
  - victor106 7y ago
    This is the exact use case we have as well. We tried business central but it seemed too heavy and it was hard to develop a streamlined experience for the users so we had to drop it. Looking for a more lightweight solution. Will definitely check this out
  - ceeker 7y ago
    Could you please share your reasons for looking at alternatives to Drools? I am in the process of evaluating Drools and it will be great to understand why people move away from it.
    - tappio 7y ago
      "Looking for alternatives" was maybe a bit too much. As far I understood these are built pretty much on the same core? So using the same rule sets should work on Kogito too. We recently moved to micro services and I'd like to have the editor as part of another service instead of kie workbench so I've been looking around for ways to accomplish that.
      - evacchi 7y ago
        you should look into our new tooling https://kiegroup.github.io/kogito-online/#/ https://kiegroup.github.io/kogito-online/#/ also, yes: Kogito is still based on Drools for the rules part
- tlarkworthy 7y ago
  I managed to get Camunda in a severless deployment: https://www.futurice.com/blog/serverless-camunda-terraform-recipe-using-cloud-run-and-cloud-sql https://www.futurice.com/blog/serverless-camunda-terraform-r... Online demo https://camunda-flxotk3pnq-ew.a.run.app/camunda-welcome/index.html https://camunda-flxotk3pnq-ew.a.run.app/camunda-welcome/inde... I'll checkout kogito, I want something that connects with pubsub for a push workflow better
  - evacchi 7y ago
    look at our quickstarts, we support Kafka https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-examples#kogito-with-kafka https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-examples#kogito-with-kafk...
- MrSaints 7y ago
  There's a relatively new one by Camunda (https://zeebe.io/ https://zeebe.io/) that also works quite well in cloud native environments.
- gavinray 7y ago
  That sounds incredible. I have no experience with Java/JVM, but found OptaPlanner online and immediately had a usecase for it. Spent a weekend trying to get through it's documentation and example code, it was so heavy and complicated that I couldn't even get a basic concept or learning exercise written by myself. Reached out on their IRC, and it was dead. Will definitely be taking a look at this!
  - ge0ffrey 7y ago
    Try our new guide that builds a REST service from scratch for highschool timetabling optimization: https://quarkus.io/guides/optaplanner https://quarkus.io/guides/optaplanner Yes, the IRC channel is dead - I 'll remove that link from the site. StackOverflow and our google group are very much alive.
salawat 7y ago
Likely a rules engine bundled with some form of business process management/modeling tool. The rules engine is used to constrain/model the edges (transitions) of the overall graph of states within your overall business workflow finite state machine. This is generally implemented by throwing said rules engine at reams of data in the form of data validation, and inferring information from the various contexts that make up a system. It's usually quite boring. Once you've seen a few, you've basically seen them all. The only differences boil down to the specifics of the industry, data model, and implementation of your basic frameworks. In actual businesses there's basically maybe 4 actual software buckets that just about everything seems to end up degenerating to. BPMA(Business Process Management/Automation, I.e. case/customer relation management, stuff related to doing business as a whole), OLTP (On-Line Transaction Processing; how you get data in), AADPETLR (Accounting, Auditing, Data Processing, Extraction, Transformation, Loading, and Reporting; what you do with all that juicy data you've collected). All of those as I understand it may tend to end up getting combined into something called an ERP, (Enterprise Resource... Platform, I think?) Having worked on most individual parts at one point, it's a bloody drag reimplementing the same thing over and over again in different wrappers this time. It is, however, the glue that makes basically any modern business work. The funny bit is how pretty much everyone does the same bloody thing, but bends over backwards to protect info with regards to who they are doing/sharing it with; even from their own employees.

etxm 7y ago

You’ve got to update your marketing page with some examples besides a small diagram and some java class names. I had to get all the way to mentioning drools before I knew WTF Kogito did. BTW rules[1] is pretty good. [1] https://github.com/jruizgit/rules https://github.com/jruizgit/rules

evacchi 7y ago
We know. We are doing our best to update the docs and website, we will publish something better soon. In the meantime you can have a look at our blogs (e.g. http://blog.athico.com/ http://blog.athico.com/) and our examples https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-examples https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-examples this deep dive is also a nice overview of the project (also yay I am there) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBkX6v57Jbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBkX6v57Jbo

pachico 7y ago

It really strikes me how many times new products fail to describe efficiently what they do. It often seems they're explaining what the project/service does to someone who already knows it rather than to someone who just landed on their website. Many Apache products lack of proper explanation, in my opinion. Some times even AWS services. Well, it could be I'm bad at understanding their explanation. Am I the only one thinking this?

pachico 7y ago
I hope you guys at Kogito take this in a constructive way. For instance, once you want to know more and you read "examples", as user, I want to fully understand what does it do! Instead, I find a link to https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-examples/releases https://github.com/kiegroup/kogito-examples/releases . I have no doubt your software is amazing, I just would like you to help me understand what it does and if it suits me. :)
- evacchi 7y ago
  we will! We are currently working on making our documentation and getting started experience more accessible. We welcome constructive feedback like this :)
mxuribe 7y ago
You are not alone. Many amazing groups fail to properly communicate and describe what they do/offer.
ericol 7y ago
Funny enough, this happens in my company. We have two products in market. An "old" one (that actually paid the bills for a looong time). And another, newer one that was supposed to replace the old one way to long ago as well (That didn't happen yet, but to be honest... it's complicated). Every time I was shown what the new product does, it was a demonstration of how it works, related to the old one. The question "what does this product provides to our customers that the old one doesn't" hasn't been answered in years. Epilogue: Couple years back we got a beast of a sales man, and he's shoving the new product down the customers throat as if it was heroin laced candy. I'm not complaining, but would we had dedicated the dev time to the old product, we would probably be a main competitor in our market.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ceeker 7y ago

In case people from this project are still checking this thread. I am actually looking into Drools at this moment so the timing cannot be better... I have a few questions: 1. Is this a new skin/interface for existing tools like Drools / jBPM or re-implementing that functionality? 1a. If new skin: is it fair to say, once the business application is built (there maybe bugs along the way due to the stage of this project), since the foundation is Drools / jBPM, we can expect production quality that we would expect out of Drools/jBPM? 2. What is the KIE Group? Is this owned by Redhat? It is very hard to tell by reading the footer. 3. Does the team provide consulting services to use these tools for an enterprise adoption?

evacchi 7y ago
1. it's both :) we're keeping a lot of the features in place but we are taking the chance to renew some parts and drop or redesign some 2. KIE (Knowledge Is Everything) is the collective name of the development group that works on Kogito/Drools/jBPM/OptaPlanner. It's not a legal entity so it's not technically "owned" by RH, but the majority of us work for RH 3. RH provides subscription services and consulting