4 ms·

Arguably not. Rust has a lot of things that C doesn't, like classes, lifetimes, and the borrow checker, which can be jarring to deal with for programmers used t

Arguably not. Rust has a lot of things that C doesn't, like classes, lifetimes, and the borrow checker, which can be jarring to deal with for programmers used to other languages. And, unlike most other languages I've seen, you can't just sit down and write a "bad" Rust program and then refine your abilities; the compiler won't let you do the "bad" things, so you have to get everything write from the word go.

steveklabnik 7y ago
Rust does not have classes.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  In the wild, the meaning of class ranges from whatever it means in the bowels of theoretical OOP, to a struct that has thing.method() invocation syntax. I'd wager about 99% of people don't get more academic about what classes are beyond the latter definition since it's the only way in their language to create a group of state and then associate some methods with it, which is exactly what Rust has.
  - steveklabnik 7y ago
    I think in the general case, you are absolutely correct. In a sub-thread comparing language features of two languages to each other to compare their overall complexity, I think it pays to be precise.
codr7 7y ago
From what I understand Rust makes many things explicit that are implicit in other languages. You always have to deal with lifetimes one way or the other. Which is why I think it would be easier to learn, you get immediate feedback.
imron 7y ago
> Rust has a lot of things that C doesn't, like classes, lifetimes, and the borrow checker, which can be jarring to deal with for programmers used to other languages. If you are a competent C programmer - the kind that "doesn't make" memory errors, you have to be manually keeping track of lifetimes and borrows. Rust takes that mental effort and offloads it to the compiler. Lifetimes and the borrow checker will likely be jarring for people coming from languages where you don't need to worry about memory allocation and ownership, but if you are coming from C or C++, you will likely find the borrow checker a relief (I did). > the compiler won't let you do the "bad" things, so you have to get everything write from the word go. And it's wonderful! Finding and fixing problems at compile time is the fastest and cheapest way to do it, and is also a productive way to refine your abilities.
dasyatidprime 7y ago
I've just been recently learning some Rust coming from a heavy C background. The dynamic trait objects mimic what I do in C with vtable pointers and glue functions, and then sometimes I look at it over and over to make sure the casts are right and I haven't forgotten a free or anything. The borrow checker and lifetimes mimic what I do in C with pointer constness and function documentation, and then often I get very nervous and look something up again and maybe add extra intermediary comments on the data flow within a function if I'm not absolutely sure I remembered what the lifetime behavior contract was for a caller or particular callee, and of course I have to do this with all the structs too. The Drop trait mimics what I do in C with either straight-line fallthrough-chained exit labels as interior-exit goto targets or carefully included cleanups before a lesser amount of interior returns, and then I sometimes have to convert between the two for readability, and in the former case I have to carefully use a temporary variable if I also needed to return a non-constant at the end of all that. Compound-value ownership movement mimics what I do in C with either structure assignment or memcpy, and if the latter, hope that I got the pointer types and type size right because memcpy won't check, and in either case hope that I was able to prove that the original structure wasn't going to be incorrectly reused and maybe memset it to zero just in case that makes something crash rather than cause memory corruption. I expect I'll run into more friction once I get to any point where I want to make more dynamically interlinked data structures, though that might also push my designs into directions that use fewer pointers and more indexes or other indirect references to start with (I'm not sure of that yet)—and I really like the idea that if I can pare some of it down to a working “core” data structure semantic that involves pointer juggling, I can put carefully constructed hard-packed blocks of the pointer juggling in their own unsafe zone and then not be able to accidentally break the invariants outside of that. Which, again, is almost exactly the same thing I'd tend to do in C with inline wrapper functions and visibility stuff, and making sure I compute all the intermediary results in one phase and putting all the hard mutations in a second, unfailable (except possibly for hard crashes due to null pointers or such) phase so that if something goes wrong the data doesn't wind up crashing down to a persistent broken state from mid-flight! Heck, I've even done the newtype pattern (single-element structs for safe reinterpretation/bounding of an underlying type) in C before! I've described the way I write C as “as though I were hand-cranking the front end of a strict, low-level Haskell or Caml compiler in my head”. Rust is the closest I've seen thus far to moving a big chunk of that part of me into the digital part of the compiler. So I'm guessing my taste wasn't exactly uncommon.
pkolaczk 7y ago
Rust doesn't have classes. It has structures (struct) and interfaces (trait).

steveklabnik 7y ago

Rust does not have classes.

hombre_fatal 7y ago
In the wild, the meaning of class ranges from whatever it means in the bowels of theoretical OOP, to a struct that has thing.method() invocation syntax. I'd wager about 99% of people don't get more academic about what classes are beyond the latter definition since it's the only way in their language to create a group of state and then associate some methods with it, which is exactly what Rust has.
- steveklabnik 7y ago
  I think in the general case, you are absolutely correct. In a sub-thread comparing language features of two languages to each other to compare their overall complexity, I think it pays to be precise.

codr7 7y ago

From what I understand Rust makes many things explicit that are implicit in other languages. You always have to deal with lifetimes one way or the other. Which is why I think it would be easier to learn, you get immediate feedback.

imron 7y ago

> Rust has a lot of things that C doesn't, like classes, lifetimes, and the borrow checker, which can be jarring to deal with for programmers used to other languages. If you are a competent C programmer - the kind that "doesn't make" memory errors, you have to be manually keeping track of lifetimes and borrows. Rust takes that mental effort and offloads it to the compiler. Lifetimes and the borrow checker will likely be jarring for people coming from languages where you don't need to worry about memory allocation and ownership, but if you are coming from C or C++, you will likely find the borrow checker a relief (I did). > the compiler won't let you do the "bad" things, so you have to get everything write from the word go. And it's wonderful! Finding and fixing problems at compile time is the fastest and cheapest way to do it, and is also a productive way to refine your abilities.

dasyatidprime 7y ago

I've just been recently learning some Rust coming from a heavy C background. The dynamic trait objects mimic what I do in C with vtable pointers and glue functions, and then sometimes I look at it over and over to make sure the casts are right and I haven't forgotten a free or anything. The borrow checker and lifetimes mimic what I do in C with pointer constness and function documentation, and then often I get very nervous and look something up again and maybe add extra intermediary comments on the data flow within a function if I'm not absolutely sure I remembered what the lifetime behavior contract was for a caller or particular callee, and of course I have to do this with all the structs too. The Drop trait mimics what I do in C with either straight-line fallthrough-chained exit labels as interior-exit goto targets or carefully included cleanups before a lesser amount of interior returns, and then I sometimes have to convert between the two for readability, and in the former case I have to carefully use a temporary variable if I also needed to return a non-constant at the end of all that. Compound-value ownership movement mimics what I do in C with either structure assignment or memcpy, and if the latter, hope that I got the pointer types and type size right because memcpy won't check, and in either case hope that I was able to prove that the original structure wasn't going to be incorrectly reused and maybe memset it to zero just in case that makes something crash rather than cause memory corruption. I expect I'll run into more friction once I get to any point where I want to make more dynamically interlinked data structures, though that might also push my designs into directions that use fewer pointers and more indexes or other indirect references to start with (I'm not sure of that yet)—and I really like the idea that if I can pare some of it down to a working “core” data structure semantic that involves pointer juggling, I can put carefully constructed hard-packed blocks of the pointer juggling in their own unsafe zone and then not be able to accidentally break the invariants outside of that. Which, again, is almost exactly the same thing I'd tend to do in C with inline wrapper functions and visibility stuff, and making sure I compute all the intermediary results in one phase and putting all the hard mutations in a second, unfailable (except possibly for hard crashes due to null pointers or such) phase so that if something goes wrong the data doesn't wind up crashing down to a persistent broken state from mid-flight! Heck, I've even done the newtype pattern (single-element structs for safe reinterpretation/bounding of an underlying type) in C before! I've described the way I write C as “as though I were hand-cranking the front end of a strict, low-level Haskell or Caml compiler in my head”. Rust is the closest I've seen thus far to moving a big chunk of that part of me into the digital part of the compiler. So I'm guessing my taste wasn't exactly uncommon.

pkolaczk 7y ago

Rust doesn't have classes. It has structures (struct) and interfaces (trait).