8 ms·

'42 Knees in One Day': Israeli Snipers Open Up About Shooting Gaza Protesters

130 points by Udik 7y ago

ASalazarMX 7y ago
> "On that day, our pair had the largest number of hits, 42 in all. My locator wasn’t supposed to shoot, but I gave him a break, because we were getting close to the end of our stint, and he didn’t have knees. In the end you want to leave with the feeling that you did something, that you weren’t a sniper during exercises only. So, after I had a few hits, I suggested to him that we switch. He got around 28 knees there, I’d say." This is outright disgusting. I'm glad these kind of brutal policies are exposed and talked about.
- dogma1138 7y ago
  Snipers go through quite extensive “desensitization” training as they are guaranteed to see the immediate outcome of their actions and they also tend to operate in a conditions when its not a clear “them or me” scenario. Shooting someone who’s shooting at you or your friends is easy, taking a shot form 100’s of meters at an unsuspecting target isn’t. Their entire training is based around you are the weapon and you must do your job, Jarhead was quite a good movie about just how much emotional toll this mindset takes even or even especially in cases when they are actually denied fulfilling their role. From day one when snipers appeared on the battlefield things like kill counts and leader boards amongst snipers appeared as a coping mechanism.
  - Udik 7y ago
    The politicians who ordered them to shatter the knees of thousands of protesters must have gone through the same desensitisation training.
    - dogma1138 7y ago
      What’s the alternative shooting them dead? Let’s not pretend that this is a quiet civil rights protest, the throwing of grenades, Molotov cocktails and the planting of IEDs at the border fence happens during it. Injuries takes a less of a political toll both nationally and internationally than fatalities. While it’s easy to say don’t shoot at all you can’t avoid the fact that a portion of those which get too close and are shot do have quite hostile intentions. The issue with conflicts like these is thinking that there is a simple solution and that is for one side to stop. The Israeli public will not tolerate casualties on their side which works both ways as it grants political will for things like the withdrawal form Lebanon and the disengagement from Gaza, however it also leads to policies like this as well as the policies of Targeted Killings that were imposed initially by the Rabin administration as a low intensity solution to the rabid wave of suicide bombing across Israel. As long as there won’t be a sufficient political will on both sides to halt all hostilities for normalization to be possible there isn’t going to be a resolution to this conflict.
      - BrandoElFollito 7y ago
        This is sadly a very realistic comment. I do not have any stakes in that conflict (live in France and loosely know a few people with Jewish and Palestinian origins) and this is how I see that conflict with my untrained eye. People fighting for something hardly shareable (land) with hartred on both sides. One case of such a situation which tuurned fine and that I am incredibly proud of is the relationship between France and Germany. 1914-18, 1939-45 and now school exchanges where children meet other children (and to my dismay - communicate in English...). Not French meeting Germans, just kids meeting kids. I already mentioned that earlier but one of the greatest moments during such an exchange was a football match where they had spontaneously mixed teams, not Germany vs France.
        Udik 7y ago
        > This is sadly a very realistic comment. ... this is how I see that conflict with my untrained eye If your eye is untrained, how do you know that the comment is realistic? The data are the following: 183 Palestininans shot dead, 9200 shot in the knees "often with life-changing injuries". [1] On the Israeli side, 0 or 1 dead, 4 to 11 wounded. (data from Wikipedia). These are the facts: an army shooting on people without receiving any damage. So, did you ask yourself where did you get the idea that the killed and wounded constituted an actual threat? I can tell you: it comes from the people who shot them. And do you think they would tell you they're shooting on harmless people? Of course not. > People fighting for something hardly shareable (land) with hartred on both sides. Again: you don't realise it, but this is spin. The two sides are not equal. One is illegally occupying the other's territory. The other one is not. When you see two people fighting in the street over a handbag, you don't say "they're fighting over something hardly shareable, with hatred on both sides". You ask yourself who is the owner of the handbag, and who's the thief. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/18/world/middleeast/israeli-shootings-gaza-border.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/18/world/middleeast/israeli-...
ngold 7y ago
Humans dismembering other trapped humans for fun and bragging rights. Mine as well go back to crucifixes that the Romans used 2000 years ago.
- ASalazarMX 7y ago
  Since the dawn of humankind at least, seeing that other apes can be as cruel within their resources. The difference is that we are way smarter, we can be evil on top of being cruel.
  - true_religion 7y ago
    To put it in perspective, more people have died in the past 12 hours of covid-19 in Italy alone, than were killed by Israeli snipers armed with the best technology possible over 2 years. In the next week, more Italians will die from the virus than could have been killed by Israeli snipers even if all injuries made last year became instantly fatal. In fact, more people were murdered in Chicago by random gangsters, than were killed by Israeli snipers in the past 2 years.
    - polotics 7y ago
      I think we can take this post of yours as the reference for a definition of Whataboutism.
- curiousgal 7y ago
  Interesting response. I don't mean to start an argument but I genuinely wonder what the reaction would be if it were a response to a Holocaust incident.
  - happytoexplain 7y ago
    I've rarely seen a question implying such intriguing omitted context. You might not be getting downvotes if you had included it, since the question is kind of unclear without it anyway.
starpilot 7y ago
Very effective at their jobs. One could only hope that US Army snipers are as well trained.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  Don't cut yourself on all that edge.
- lidHanteyk 7y ago
  Go ahead and say that quiet part louder: You hope that US Army snipers are trained to shoot protestors.
- dang 7y ago
  If you continue to post flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to HN, we are going to have to ban you. We've warned you about this multiple times already.
anigbrowl 7y ago
It's so disappointing to see a country and people founded in the ashes of a holocaust committing war crimes, doubly so against a relatively disenfranchised population (as opposed to some external antagonist in a more traditional interstate conflict).
- curiousgal 7y ago
  This is why I contreversly believe that it serves zero purpose to "never forget" the Holocaust or even 9/11. The victims of such tragedies are themselves commiting other tragedies (generally speaking).
  - squarefoot 7y ago
    Those are different things. The holocaust should never be forgotten because of the huge number of innocent lives that were lost in that monstrosity. It has zero relation with the current Israel government (which didn't even exist at that time), and remembering it should help to avoid history to repeat. Hopefully. The current attitude of Israel government against Palestine is a whole different thing; claiming that Israel today is de facto a rogue terrorist nation, wrt Palestine, should have zero relation on our feelings about the holocaust. The point is that they will always attempt to conveniently dismiss any criticism as antisemitic, while we're actually talking about Israel government, not people. In fact, I can at the same time deeply hate Israel government for what they do against Palestinians and cry every time I see the images from what those poor prisoners had to suffer in nazi lager camps during WWII. Two completely different things that are not mutually exclusive.
    - curiousgal 7y ago
      > emembering it should help to avoid history to repeat That is precisely my point. It's evidently not helping.
- dntbnmpls 7y ago
  Throughout history, the propaganda of victimhood has always been used to perpetuate horrors. Whether it is the nazis, whether it is the israelis/zionists, whether it is the american settlers, etc. Almost always, victimhood is the justification of theft, attacks and brutality. What was the nazis justification for brutalizing jews and stealing their property in europe? The economic crisis post ww1. What is the israelis justification for brutalizing palestinians and stealing their land, the holocaust. What was our justification for extermination and stealing native land? Native massacres of settlers. If you look at history, every oppressor claims to be the oppressed and uses it as justification to oppress. Doesn't matter if it is a democracy, monarchy, communist, fascist, etc. They all cry out "Ow" in pain as they smash another person in the face.
golemiprague 7y ago
Should have shot them in the head, those people where part of an operation to invade Israel disguised under a "demonstration". The "protestors" where covering for actual armed militants who were trying to cut the fence and invade, any other army would have seen them as part of the invading operation but Israel is too kind and just shoot them in the knee.
_sunshine_ 7y ago
I can only wish "imagine yourself in the shoes of the protester before making a decision" would be added to the training.
- reidjs 7y ago
  There was a part that mentioned how one of the soldiers identifies with the child protestors, and how a high ranking officer mentioned if he were a Palestinian he’d be a terrorist. I don’t think it matters, they are basically just doing their job (or playing the game) they’ve been trained for. They still have to ask for authorization from the chain of command, so it doesn’t really matter what they think. Pretty heavy article
  - woodpanel 7y ago
    "a high ranking officer mentioned if he were a Palestinian he’d be a terrorist" - That was Ehud Barak, former Israeli Prime Minister.
woodpanel 7y ago
I think regardless of where you stand on the issue of the Gaza protests, you would find this piece to be a good and rare, almost entirely neutral article. Good Journalism.
- refurb 7y ago
  Agreed. This is good journalism. It simply states the facts and let's the reader decide what the implications are. Could use a lot more journalism like this.
- danieltillett 7y ago
  This is journalism. Far too much opinion is mislabeled as journalism.
ColanR 7y ago
At least they aren't headshots.
- lilSebastian 7y ago
  That's the spirit....
  - ColanR 7y ago
    I know, right? Maybe next we can talk the folks firing rockets into using glitter bombs.
kaiku 7y ago
Watch Gaza Fights for Freedom, a documentary by Abby Martin and Mike Prysner, for a horrifying look into what life is like in Gaza for the Palestinian people. It was filmed inside Gaza and the footage smuggled out. It is a humanitarian crisis to say the least. I personally think it's closer to genocide.
goldcd 7y ago
Fuck - that was an article I wish I'd never read. I almost hoped it would stop at the half-way mark, so I could just shake my head at people I could despise, but it kept going. My thoughts in no particular order: Clearly the Palestinians are physically suffering most from this - but whether they acknowledge it or not, it's destroying the Israelis involved. Similar to the US involvement in VietNam - doesn't matter if you win/lose or even why - people who come back are changed. I don't "blame Israel" - I work for an Israeli company. Not a choice, just a happenstance of a takeover. Quite an eye-opener when somebody politely tells you that we need to wrap up the conference call, as there are incoming rockets. Only firm feeling I take away is that I loathe "dehumanization" - that pernicious and onmi-present trope that is rolled out by all sides in pretty much every country, under every circumstance - and has been forever.
- rhizome 7y ago
  >Palestinians are physically suffering most from this - but whether they acknowledge it or not, it's destroying the Israelis involved The difference of course is that one is being attacked by others, and the other is doing it to themselves.
- Udik 7y ago
  > when somebody politely tells you that we need to wrap up the conference call, as there are incoming rockets. I guess illegally occupying someone else's land, destroying their homes and forcing millions in an open air prison has its price.
- LeifCarrotson 7y ago
  Even more tragically, it's destroying both the Israeli people doing the shooting and the Palestinian people who are the victims, but it's not touching those who are setting the policies which lead to that situation nearly as viscerally.
knzhou 7y ago
Why is this downweighted?
- squarefoot 7y ago
  Any criticism of Israel must be dismissed, and authors labeled as antisemitic.
  - knzhou 7y ago
    Wow, and now it's been flagged to death. There's nothing wrong with the article, either. It's evenhanded, and Haaretz is about as mainstream as the New York Times. Is this a normal HN thing that I just haven't noticed until now? Is this subject just too radioactive to be discussed?
    - squarefoot 7y ago
      I wasn't referring to the article; I saw many times in different contexts, critics of the Israel government actions against Palestine being labeled as antisemitic just to make them appear as racists and dismiss their valid points.
BasDirks 7y ago
I clicked this link, came back to the front page to check comments, and it was gone. Hm!
lostmsu 7y ago
Paywall :/
tomjen3 7y ago
If you are shooting someone in the knee, and it is not by accident, you are the bad guy. There may be times where you have to shoot someone to kill them, even if they are not directly a threat to you. There may be times where you have to disable someone who is running towards you. In that case you shoot for the upper parts of the legs. You shoot a knee and that will for ever cripple them, with no benefit to you, other than the enemy will always be in pain -- i.e. a benefit only to a psychopath. I am not naive; I know that there are really bad people out there whom we would all be better of without, but I also understand that there is a level, which you must not cross unless you want to become just as evil yourself. These snipers crossed it, and in doing so created yet another argument to show that Israel is not mature enough to be a legitimate country.

130 points by Udik 7y ago

> "On that day, our pair had the largest number of hits, 42 in all. My locator wasn’t supposed to shoot, but I gave him a break, because we were getting close to the end of our stint, and he didn’t have knees. In the end you want to leave with the feeling that you did something, that you weren’t a sniper during exercises only. So, after I had a few hits, I suggested to him that we switch. He got around 28 knees there, I’d say." This is outright disgusting. I'm glad these kind of brutal policies are exposed and talked about.

dogma1138 7y ago
Snipers go through quite extensive “desensitization” training as they are guaranteed to see the immediate outcome of their actions and they also tend to operate in a conditions when its not a clear “them or me” scenario. Shooting someone who’s shooting at you or your friends is easy, taking a shot form 100’s of meters at an unsuspecting target isn’t. Their entire training is based around you are the weapon and you must do your job, Jarhead was quite a good movie about just how much emotional toll this mindset takes even or even especially in cases when they are actually denied fulfilling their role. From day one when snipers appeared on the battlefield things like kill counts and leader boards amongst snipers appeared as a coping mechanism.
- Udik 7y ago
  The politicians who ordered them to shatter the knees of thousands of protesters must have gone through the same desensitisation training.
  - dogma1138 7y ago
    What’s the alternative shooting them dead? Let’s not pretend that this is a quiet civil rights protest, the throwing of grenades, Molotov cocktails and the planting of IEDs at the border fence happens during it. Injuries takes a less of a political toll both nationally and internationally than fatalities. While it’s easy to say don’t shoot at all you can’t avoid the fact that a portion of those which get too close and are shot do have quite hostile intentions. The issue with conflicts like these is thinking that there is a simple solution and that is for one side to stop. The Israeli public will not tolerate casualties on their side which works both ways as it grants political will for things like the withdrawal form Lebanon and the disengagement from Gaza, however it also leads to policies like this as well as the policies of Targeted Killings that were imposed initially by the Rabin administration as a low intensity solution to the rabid wave of suicide bombing across Israel. As long as there won’t be a sufficient political will on both sides to halt all hostilities for normalization to be possible there isn’t going to be a resolution to this conflict.
    - BrandoElFollito 7y ago
      This is sadly a very realistic comment. I do not have any stakes in that conflict (live in France and loosely know a few people with Jewish and Palestinian origins) and this is how I see that conflict with my untrained eye. People fighting for something hardly shareable (land) with hartred on both sides. One case of such a situation which tuurned fine and that I am incredibly proud of is the relationship between France and Germany. 1914-18, 1939-45 and now school exchanges where children meet other children (and to my dismay - communicate in English...). Not French meeting Germans, just kids meeting kids. I already mentioned that earlier but one of the greatest moments during such an exchange was a football match where they had spontaneously mixed teams, not Germany vs France.
      - Udik 7y ago
        > This is sadly a very realistic comment. ... this is how I see that conflict with my untrained eye If your eye is untrained, how do you know that the comment is realistic? The data are the following: 183 Palestininans shot dead, 9200 shot in the knees "often with life-changing injuries". [1] On the Israeli side, 0 or 1 dead, 4 to 11 wounded. (data from Wikipedia). These are the facts: an army shooting on people without receiving any damage. So, did you ask yourself where did you get the idea that the killed and wounded constituted an actual threat? I can tell you: it comes from the people who shot them. And do you think they would tell you they're shooting on harmless people? Of course not. > People fighting for something hardly shareable (land) with hartred on both sides. Again: you don't realise it, but this is spin. The two sides are not equal. One is illegally occupying the other's territory. The other one is not. When you see two people fighting in the street over a handbag, you don't say "they're fighting over something hardly shareable, with hatred on both sides". You ask yourself who is the owner of the handbag, and who's the thief. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/18/world/middleeast/israeli-shootings-gaza-border.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/18/world/middleeast/israeli-...

ngold 7y ago

Humans dismembering other trapped humans for fun and bragging rights. Mine as well go back to crucifixes that the Romans used 2000 years ago.

ASalazarMX 7y ago
Since the dawn of humankind at least, seeing that other apes can be as cruel within their resources. The difference is that we are way smarter, we can be evil on top of being cruel.
- true_religion 7y ago
  To put it in perspective, more people have died in the past 12 hours of covid-19 in Italy alone, than were killed by Israeli snipers armed with the best technology possible over 2 years. In the next week, more Italians will die from the virus than could have been killed by Israeli snipers even if all injuries made last year became instantly fatal. In fact, more people were murdered in Chicago by random gangsters, than were killed by Israeli snipers in the past 2 years.
  - polotics 7y ago
    I think we can take this post of yours as the reference for a definition of Whataboutism.
curiousgal 7y ago
Interesting response. I don't mean to start an argument but I genuinely wonder what the reaction would be if it were a response to a Holocaust incident.
- happytoexplain 7y ago
  I've rarely seen a question implying such intriguing omitted context. You might not be getting downvotes if you had included it, since the question is kind of unclear without it anyway.

starpilot 7y ago

Very effective at their jobs. One could only hope that US Army snipers are as well trained.

anigbrowl 7y ago
Don't cut yourself on all that edge.
lidHanteyk 7y ago
Go ahead and say that quiet part louder: You hope that US Army snipers are trained to shoot protestors.
dang 7y ago
If you continue to post flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to HN, we are going to have to ban you. We've warned you about this multiple times already.

anigbrowl 7y ago

It's so disappointing to see a country and people founded in the ashes of a holocaust committing war crimes, doubly so against a relatively disenfranchised population (as opposed to some external antagonist in a more traditional interstate conflict).

curiousgal 7y ago
This is why I contreversly believe that it serves zero purpose to "never forget" the Holocaust or even 9/11. The victims of such tragedies are themselves commiting other tragedies (generally speaking).
- squarefoot 7y ago
  Those are different things. The holocaust should never be forgotten because of the huge number of innocent lives that were lost in that monstrosity. It has zero relation with the current Israel government (which didn't even exist at that time), and remembering it should help to avoid history to repeat. Hopefully. The current attitude of Israel government against Palestine is a whole different thing; claiming that Israel today is de facto a rogue terrorist nation, wrt Palestine, should have zero relation on our feelings about the holocaust. The point is that they will always attempt to conveniently dismiss any criticism as antisemitic, while we're actually talking about Israel government, not people. In fact, I can at the same time deeply hate Israel government for what they do against Palestinians and cry every time I see the images from what those poor prisoners had to suffer in nazi lager camps during WWII. Two completely different things that are not mutually exclusive.
  - curiousgal 7y ago
    > emembering it should help to avoid history to repeat That is precisely my point. It's evidently not helping.
dntbnmpls 7y ago
Throughout history, the propaganda of victimhood has always been used to perpetuate horrors. Whether it is the nazis, whether it is the israelis/zionists, whether it is the american settlers, etc. Almost always, victimhood is the justification of theft, attacks and brutality. What was the nazis justification for brutalizing jews and stealing their property in europe? The economic crisis post ww1. What is the israelis justification for brutalizing palestinians and stealing their land, the holocaust. What was our justification for extermination and stealing native land? Native massacres of settlers. If you look at history, every oppressor claims to be the oppressed and uses it as justification to oppress. Doesn't matter if it is a democracy, monarchy, communist, fascist, etc. They all cry out "Ow" in pain as they smash another person in the face.

golemiprague 7y ago

Should have shot them in the head, those people where part of an operation to invade Israel disguised under a "demonstration". The "protestors" where covering for actual armed militants who were trying to cut the fence and invade, any other army would have seen them as part of the invading operation but Israel is too kind and just shoot them in the knee.

_sunshine_ 7y ago

I can only wish "imagine yourself in the shoes of the protester before making a decision" would be added to the training.

reidjs 7y ago
There was a part that mentioned how one of the soldiers identifies with the child protestors, and how a high ranking officer mentioned if he were a Palestinian he’d be a terrorist. I don’t think it matters, they are basically just doing their job (or playing the game) they’ve been trained for. They still have to ask for authorization from the chain of command, so it doesn’t really matter what they think. Pretty heavy article
- woodpanel 7y ago
  "a high ranking officer mentioned if he were a Palestinian he’d be a terrorist" - That was Ehud Barak, former Israeli Prime Minister.

woodpanel 7y ago

I think regardless of where you stand on the issue of the Gaza protests, you would find this piece to be a good and rare, almost entirely neutral article. Good Journalism.

refurb 7y ago
Agreed. This is good journalism. It simply states the facts and let's the reader decide what the implications are. Could use a lot more journalism like this.
danieltillett 7y ago
This is journalism. Far too much opinion is mislabeled as journalism.

ColanR 7y ago

At least they aren't headshots.

lilSebastian 7y ago
That's the spirit....
- ColanR 7y ago
  I know, right? Maybe next we can talk the folks firing rockets into using glitter bombs.

kaiku 7y ago

Watch Gaza Fights for Freedom, a documentary by Abby Martin and Mike Prysner, for a horrifying look into what life is like in Gaza for the Palestinian people. It was filmed inside Gaza and the footage smuggled out. It is a humanitarian crisis to say the least. I personally think it's closer to genocide.

goldcd 7y ago

Fuck - that was an article I wish I'd never read. I almost hoped it would stop at the half-way mark, so I could just shake my head at people I could despise, but it kept going. My thoughts in no particular order: Clearly the Palestinians are physically suffering most from this - but whether they acknowledge it or not, it's destroying the Israelis involved. Similar to the US involvement in VietNam - doesn't matter if you win/lose or even why - people who come back are changed. I don't "blame Israel" - I work for an Israeli company. Not a choice, just a happenstance of a takeover. Quite an eye-opener when somebody politely tells you that we need to wrap up the conference call, as there are incoming rockets. Only firm feeling I take away is that I loathe "dehumanization" - that pernicious and onmi-present trope that is rolled out by all sides in pretty much every country, under every circumstance - and has been forever.

rhizome 7y ago
>Palestinians are physically suffering most from this - but whether they acknowledge it or not, it's destroying the Israelis involved The difference of course is that one is being attacked by others, and the other is doing it to themselves.
Udik 7y ago
> when somebody politely tells you that we need to wrap up the conference call, as there are incoming rockets. I guess illegally occupying someone else's land, destroying their homes and forcing millions in an open air prison has its price.
LeifCarrotson 7y ago
Even more tragically, it's destroying both the Israeli people doing the shooting and the Palestinian people who are the victims, but it's not touching those who are setting the policies which lead to that situation nearly as viscerally.

knzhou 7y ago

Why is this downweighted?

squarefoot 7y ago
Any criticism of Israel must be dismissed, and authors labeled as antisemitic.
- knzhou 7y ago
  Wow, and now it's been flagged to death. There's nothing wrong with the article, either. It's evenhanded, and Haaretz is about as mainstream as the New York Times. Is this a normal HN thing that I just haven't noticed until now? Is this subject just too radioactive to be discussed?
  - squarefoot 7y ago
    I wasn't referring to the article; I saw many times in different contexts, critics of the Israel government actions against Palestine being labeled as antisemitic just to make them appear as racists and dismiss their valid points.

BasDirks 7y ago

I clicked this link, came back to the front page to check comments, and it was gone. Hm!

lostmsu 7y ago

Paywall :/

tomjen3 7y ago

If you are shooting someone in the knee, and it is not by accident, you are the bad guy. There may be times where you have to shoot someone to kill them, even if they are not directly a threat to you. There may be times where you have to disable someone who is running towards you. In that case you shoot for the upper parts of the legs. You shoot a knee and that will for ever cripple them, with no benefit to you, other than the enemy will always be in pain -- i.e. a benefit only to a psychopath. I am not naive; I know that there are really bad people out there whom we would all be better of without, but I also understand that there is a level, which you must not cross unless you want to become just as evil yourself. These snipers crossed it, and in doing so created yet another argument to show that Israel is not mature enough to be a legitimate country.