7 ms·

The pixel perfect terrain deformation of Lemmings and Worms will always be impressive, and something that 3D can’t do as well as 2D (yet?) I wonder why there h

The pixel perfect terrain deformation of Lemmings and Worms will always be impressive, and something that 3D can’t do as well as 2D (yet?) I wonder why there haven’t been any modern sequels or mobile ports of Lemmings..

chrononaut 7y ago
I have the same opinion as it relates to 2D RPGs, e.g., FF6. The level of detail that could be added into the most benign piece of background art added so much more weight into the entire scene.
severine 7y ago
> I wonder why there haven’t been any modern sequels or mobile ports of Lemmings... From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmings_(video_game)#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmings_(video_game)#Legacy In 2010, it was announced that Lemmings would be ported to the iOS operating system by developer Mobile 1UP. On 29 June 2010, Mobile 1UP reported that Sony Computer Entertainment Europe had presented them with a cease-and-desist letter, forcing them to halt development of the port. In April 2011, Mobile 1UP has released a re-worked version of the work done in 2010 with a prehistoric setting (new artwork, sfx, music, levels) under the name Caveman, available for the iOS and webOS platforms. Brutal Deluxe, the developer who did the porting of the Apple IIgs version of Lemmings, has released the games' source code. Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmings_(video_game)#Ports_and_remakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmings_(video_game)#Ports_an...
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  I played a mobile lemmings game on Android just last year. It was completely uninspired and not actually a lemmings game loop.
aasasd 7y ago
There was this crazy game ‘Vangers’ that, apart from the most-otherworldly feel I've ever encountered, had terrain in voxel graphics and permanently destructible — and I don't mean shitty Minecraft voxels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9R7QJ5Sh1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9R7QJ5Sh1o That was '98. Still wondering why I haven't seen anything like that anymore. I vaguely recall one dude working on a super-detailed engine, down to individual blades of grass and such, but not sure how's the damage model there (that's possibly related to this, but probably not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4). There's also the ‘Teardown’ game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc_QC25RM44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc_QC25RM44, and a search for ‘voxel graphics’ on YouTube suggests a few others in this vein. Still not quite the same. As for mobile Lemmings, the Play store tried to sell them to me just yesterday.
- MereInterest 7y ago
  Interesting. Judging from the video, I can't tell, but does it use a height map, or true voxels? I don't see any instances of hollow spaces or overhangs, which could be done with voxels but not with a height map. A height map would give good performance and destructibility, without using a huge amount of memory. The top-down view would let you hide that from the players, such as for bridges.
  - aasasd 7y ago
    There are under-surface nooks and overpasses, also destructible (in fact, most of the nooks are accessed in just that way). Notably, the terrain is optionally permanently destructible, but you could switch it to temporary if the machine didn't have too much ram (by the standards of '98). In practice, having a sizeable fraction of the world(s) destroyed, as a side effect of normal business, did hamper the vibe, so having the damage be temporary was just saner.
- outworlder 7y ago
  > had terrain in voxel graphics and permanently destructible Isn't that a feature of several 'modern' games, like Space Engineers, Stationeers, Astroneer and maybe more?
tejohnso 7y ago
Rabbit Escape[1] is similar; I like the scribble aesthetic. [1]: https://artificialworlds.net/rabbit-escape/ https://artificialworlds.net/rabbit-escape/
enneff 7y ago
Predating both: https://archive.org/details/GorillasQbasic https://archive.org/details/GorillasQbasic
bluquark 7y ago
You might also enjoy Noita, a modern roguelike with per-pixel terrain destruction -- as well as liquids, gases and fire.
- yxhuvud 7y ago
  It is not in any way a roguelike. It can be considered a roguelite,though personally I'd just say it is a platformer with permadeath.
endgame 7y ago
Noita does interesting things with terrain deformation, and this is a good GDC talk about how it does so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prXuyMCgbTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prXuyMCgbTc
armadsen 7y ago
Sony has owned Lemmings since the early 90s. They have actually released Lemmings games somewhat regularly for their consoles. Most recently, in 2018, they did a version for iOS and Android: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/lemmings-the-puzzle-adventure/id1238114713 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/lemmings-the-puzzle-adventure/... Unfortunately it’s a typical free-to-play mobile game where you buy gold to keep playing.
lloeki 7y ago
Red Faction, which was mostly taking place in underground mines, had generic deformable/destructible terrain reminiscent of Lemmings terrain, but 3D. It was artificially limited in some ways, otherwise you'd just drill your way straight to the level end (similarly to some Lemmings levels with unpiercable material). Drilling through was not just a gimmick but actually part of the game, e.g instead of finding a key à la Doom/Descent, you'd have to detonate a rocket, a mine, or a grenade at walls near locked doors to create holes big enough to go around them (took me a surprisingly long time the first time to figure I was supposed to do that, especially as the level is intentionally deceptive as you have door with buttons/keys before). There were also actual boring machines to help you drill through big time. You could make bridges fall into a chasm by blasting both ends. In enemy-crowded open areas you'd have to create your own cover by carving holes in walls or in the ground. Trivia: Red Faction was initially due to be Descent 4 (as a prequel to Descent), but turned into a on-foot FPS in a different universe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Faction_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Faction_(video_game)
- protomikron 7y ago
  Thanks for mentioning that, I think do this date it's one of the very view 3D games with destructible terrain. I remember in particular one testing level (maybe it was just in the demo), where you were put in a hall with some explosives to experiment with (probably to showcase the engine). When I was a kid I remember that I wanted to create a U-formed tunnel around the hall and was pretty impressed when this was indeed possible (and had respect for tunnel engineers as it's hard to get the direction right). ##################### # # # +---------------+ # # | | # # | | # #| |# # # +---------------+ +|- ... original hall/room # ... tunnel I was really impressed at that time and frankly I still am. Good times. EDIT: The level was called glasshouse. This video might be useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8KeFgzqsPQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8KeFgzqsPQ
  - lloeki 7y ago
    Glass House is a sandbox level on the PC version, to fool around with the engine!
frosted-flakes 7y ago
There's a port of Lemmings 1 on the Windows store. A few things like the bomber explosions were changed, but it's otherwise the same game.

chrononaut 7y ago

I have the same opinion as it relates to 2D RPGs, e.g., FF6. The level of detail that could be added into the most benign piece of background art added so much more weight into the entire scene.

severine 7y ago

> I wonder why there haven’t been any modern sequels or mobile ports of Lemmings... From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmings_(video_game)#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmings_(video_game)#Legacy In 2010, it was announced that Lemmings would be ported to the iOS operating system by developer Mobile 1UP. On 29 June 2010, Mobile 1UP reported that Sony Computer Entertainment Europe had presented them with a cease-and-desist letter, forcing them to halt development of the port. In April 2011, Mobile 1UP has released a re-worked version of the work done in 2010 with a prehistoric setting (new artwork, sfx, music, levels) under the name Caveman, available for the iOS and webOS platforms. Brutal Deluxe, the developer who did the porting of the Apple IIgs version of Lemmings, has released the games' source code. Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmings_(video_game)#Ports_and_remakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmings_(video_game)#Ports_an...

Waterluvian 7y ago
I played a mobile lemmings game on Android just last year. It was completely uninspired and not actually a lemmings game loop.

aasasd 7y ago

There was this crazy game ‘Vangers’ that, apart from the most-otherworldly feel I've ever encountered, had terrain in voxel graphics and permanently destructible — and I don't mean shitty Minecraft voxels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9R7QJ5Sh1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9R7QJ5Sh1o That was '98. Still wondering why I haven't seen anything like that anymore. I vaguely recall one dude working on a super-detailed engine, down to individual blades of grass and such, but not sure how's the damage model there (that's possibly related to this, but probably not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4). There's also the ‘Teardown’ game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc_QC25RM44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc_QC25RM44, and a search for ‘voxel graphics’ on YouTube suggests a few others in this vein. Still not quite the same. As for mobile Lemmings, the Play store tried to sell them to me just yesterday.

MereInterest 7y ago
Interesting. Judging from the video, I can't tell, but does it use a height map, or true voxels? I don't see any instances of hollow spaces or overhangs, which could be done with voxels but not with a height map. A height map would give good performance and destructibility, without using a huge amount of memory. The top-down view would let you hide that from the players, such as for bridges.
- aasasd 7y ago
  There are under-surface nooks and overpasses, also destructible (in fact, most of the nooks are accessed in just that way). Notably, the terrain is optionally permanently destructible, but you could switch it to temporary if the machine didn't have too much ram (by the standards of '98). In practice, having a sizeable fraction of the world(s) destroyed, as a side effect of normal business, did hamper the vibe, so having the damage be temporary was just saner.
outworlder 7y ago
> had terrain in voxel graphics and permanently destructible Isn't that a feature of several 'modern' games, like Space Engineers, Stationeers, Astroneer and maybe more?

tejohnso 7y ago

Rabbit Escape[1] is similar; I like the scribble aesthetic. [1]: https://artificialworlds.net/rabbit-escape/ https://artificialworlds.net/rabbit-escape/

enneff 7y ago

Predating both: https://archive.org/details/GorillasQbasic https://archive.org/details/GorillasQbasic

bluquark 7y ago

You might also enjoy Noita, a modern roguelike with per-pixel terrain destruction -- as well as liquids, gases and fire.

yxhuvud 7y ago
It is not in any way a roguelike. It can be considered a roguelite,though personally I'd just say it is a platformer with permadeath.

endgame 7y ago

Noita does interesting things with terrain deformation, and this is a good GDC talk about how it does so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prXuyMCgbTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prXuyMCgbTc

armadsen 7y ago

Sony has owned Lemmings since the early 90s. They have actually released Lemmings games somewhat regularly for their consoles. Most recently, in 2018, they did a version for iOS and Android: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/lemmings-the-puzzle-adventure/id1238114713 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/lemmings-the-puzzle-adventure/... Unfortunately it’s a typical free-to-play mobile game where you buy gold to keep playing.

lloeki 7y ago

Red Faction, which was mostly taking place in underground mines, had generic deformable/destructible terrain reminiscent of Lemmings terrain, but 3D. It was artificially limited in some ways, otherwise you'd just drill your way straight to the level end (similarly to some Lemmings levels with unpiercable material). Drilling through was not just a gimmick but actually part of the game, e.g instead of finding a key à la Doom/Descent, you'd have to detonate a rocket, a mine, or a grenade at walls near locked doors to create holes big enough to go around them (took me a surprisingly long time the first time to figure I was supposed to do that, especially as the level is intentionally deceptive as you have door with buttons/keys before). There were also actual boring machines to help you drill through big time. You could make bridges fall into a chasm by blasting both ends. In enemy-crowded open areas you'd have to create your own cover by carving holes in walls or in the ground. Trivia: Red Faction was initially due to be Descent 4 (as a prequel to Descent), but turned into a on-foot FPS in a different universe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Faction_(video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Faction_(video_game)

protomikron 7y ago
Thanks for mentioning that, I think do this date it's one of the very view 3D games with destructible terrain. I remember in particular one testing level (maybe it was just in the demo), where you were put in a hall with some explosives to experiment with (probably to showcase the engine). When I was a kid I remember that I wanted to create a U-formed tunnel around the hall and was pretty impressed when this was indeed possible (and had respect for tunnel engineers as it's hard to get the direction right). ##################### # # # +---------------+ # # | | # # | | # #| |# # # +---------------+ +|- ... original hall/room # ... tunnel I was really impressed at that time and frankly I still am. Good times. EDIT: The level was called glasshouse. This video might be useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8KeFgzqsPQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8KeFgzqsPQ
- lloeki 7y ago
  Glass House is a sandbox level on the PC version, to fool around with the engine!

frosted-flakes 7y ago

There's a port of Lemmings 1 on the Windows store. A few things like the bomber explosions were changed, but it's otherwise the same game.