5 ms·

Sorry what? His state has the highest infection rate and he just NOW did a 100% workforce reduction. He hasn't even issued "a shelter in place" order. BARS WER

Sorry what? His state has the highest infection rate and he just NOW did a 100% workforce reduction. He hasn't even issued "a shelter in place" order. BARS WERE OPEN MONDAY. Thousands of deaths will be on his hands. I think he should be criminally prosecuted. NY needs to be locked down NOW.

gdulli 7y ago
I think there's a social engineering aspect of this where it's believed by governments that drastic measures wouldn't be accepted by the public overnight. They think something like a shelter could only go smoothly after a period of ramping up to it with a period of persistent messaging and getting people used to less drastic measures first. Think of how many (more) people would be ignoring this and writing it off as a hoax if they were told out of nowhere that they had to stay home. We're getting a picture (Burr) that the federal government knew these measures were coming a while back. My guess is that if governors and mayors of large cities had been read in back then they'd have started prepping local measures earlier.
- darawk 7y ago
  I agree that western governments seem to believe this, but I don't believe it's true. All you have to do is start enforcing the order, and people will start to get the message.
  - gdulli 7y ago
    I don't know if it's true or not, but believing it and ramping up to drastic measures isn't negligence and certainly doesn't warrant criminal prosecution, as the commenter suggested. I think an abrupt enforced order for people to stay home would be a disaster. Aside from all the people who distrust authority for the sake of distrusting authority, and all the resistance and denial it would breed, what happens when law enforcement starts getting sick and infecting all the people they have to forcibly keep home or detain?
fennecfoxen 7y ago
For good and for ill, it is Constitutionally problematic to "lock down" an entire state, as it is essentially placing millions of people under arrest, which in the general case is a stupefyingly terrible power for any government to wield. On the other hand, the state can totally shut down businesses. In circumstances like this, it is not suspect in the least. I will further note that for Cuomo to be criminally prosecuted, he would need to commit some crime. Now, this happens sometimes in NY government (quite often, really) but it usually involves corruption; I am not aware of any particular law he has violated in acquitting his duties in this matter. Anger may indeed be quite justified, but when politicians are prosecuted for their policies after the fact, this is usually more effective at turning a place into a banana republic than it is at improving the quality of the policies.
- ransom1538 7y ago
  Turns out, we do have a law against what he is doing: Manslaughter: the crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder.
- vkou 7y ago
  > For good and for ill, it is Constitutionally problematic to "lock down" an entire state, as it is essentially placing millions of people under arrest, which in the general case is a stupefyingly terrible power for any government to wield. I don't understand why this meme keeps getting repeated, when the power to quarantine has been rather conclusively litigated in the courts.
  - fennecfoxen 7y ago
    The power to quarantine individuals and groups of infected people has been well-litigated. But it is a very new thing indeed to tell 7 or 8 million people at a time, around 99% of whom are still expected to be uninfected, that they are now threats, and are under some form of house arrest. This is unprecedented and has never been litigated. New York's quarantine law, in particular, allows you to challenge the quarantine order in court after 3 days. It is then on the state to demonstrate clear and convincing evidence that you — specifically you — pose a clear threat to the safety of others, and that your confinement is the least restrictive means to contain this threat.
throwaway5752 7y ago
NY and NYC have a different relationship and needs and a lot falls on the mayor. This played out in Seattle and San Fransisco, too.
ceejayoz 7y ago
> His state has the highest infection rate NY doesn't have the highest infection rate, just the highest raw count. This likely just reflects the fact that NY is doing a lot more testing than any other state. Alabama has had roughly 80% of their tests come back positive, and they've only done a little more than a hundred. https://www.politico.com/interactives/2020/coronavirus-testing-by-state-chart-of-new-cases/ https://www.politico.com/interactives/2020/coronavirus-testi...
jrockway 7y ago
I think Cuomo understands that it's not actually possible to lock down NYC. There aren't enough cops, courtrooms, or jail cells to enforce anything. That is why he's focusing on fining businesses for staying open, and is not sending cops up to make sure everyone stays 6 feet apart. One thing is possible, the other is just an authoritarian pipe dream. "Shelter in place" is a meaningless term when you can leave the shelter to go for a walk, go out and buy groceries, go to work as one of the many essential services, etc. Cuomo said as much. This isn't a natural disaster that destroyed infrastructure; all that needs to be done is keep the rate of hospitalizations under the number of available hospital beds.

gdulli 7y ago

I think there's a social engineering aspect of this where it's believed by governments that drastic measures wouldn't be accepted by the public overnight. They think something like a shelter could only go smoothly after a period of ramping up to it with a period of persistent messaging and getting people used to less drastic measures first. Think of how many (more) people would be ignoring this and writing it off as a hoax if they were told out of nowhere that they had to stay home. We're getting a picture (Burr) that the federal government knew these measures were coming a while back. My guess is that if governors and mayors of large cities had been read in back then they'd have started prepping local measures earlier.

darawk 7y ago
I agree that western governments seem to believe this, but I don't believe it's true. All you have to do is start enforcing the order, and people will start to get the message.
- gdulli 7y ago
  I don't know if it's true or not, but believing it and ramping up to drastic measures isn't negligence and certainly doesn't warrant criminal prosecution, as the commenter suggested. I think an abrupt enforced order for people to stay home would be a disaster. Aside from all the people who distrust authority for the sake of distrusting authority, and all the resistance and denial it would breed, what happens when law enforcement starts getting sick and infecting all the people they have to forcibly keep home or detain?

fennecfoxen 7y ago

For good and for ill, it is Constitutionally problematic to "lock down" an entire state, as it is essentially placing millions of people under arrest, which in the general case is a stupefyingly terrible power for any government to wield. On the other hand, the state can totally shut down businesses. In circumstances like this, it is not suspect in the least. I will further note that for Cuomo to be criminally prosecuted, he would need to commit some crime. Now, this happens sometimes in NY government (quite often, really) but it usually involves corruption; I am not aware of any particular law he has violated in acquitting his duties in this matter. Anger may indeed be quite justified, but when politicians are prosecuted for their policies after the fact, this is usually more effective at turning a place into a banana republic than it is at improving the quality of the policies.

ransom1538 7y ago
Turns out, we do have a law against what he is doing: Manslaughter: the crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder.
vkou 7y ago
> For good and for ill, it is Constitutionally problematic to "lock down" an entire state, as it is essentially placing millions of people under arrest, which in the general case is a stupefyingly terrible power for any government to wield. I don't understand why this meme keeps getting repeated, when the power to quarantine has been rather conclusively litigated in the courts.
- fennecfoxen 7y ago
  The power to quarantine individuals and groups of infected people has been well-litigated. But it is a very new thing indeed to tell 7 or 8 million people at a time, around 99% of whom are still expected to be uninfected, that they are now threats, and are under some form of house arrest. This is unprecedented and has never been litigated. New York's quarantine law, in particular, allows you to challenge the quarantine order in court after 3 days. It is then on the state to demonstrate clear and convincing evidence that you — specifically you — pose a clear threat to the safety of others, and that your confinement is the least restrictive means to contain this threat.

throwaway5752 7y ago

NY and NYC have a different relationship and needs and a lot falls on the mayor. This played out in Seattle and San Fransisco, too.

ceejayoz 7y ago

> His state has the highest infection rate NY doesn't have the highest infection rate, just the highest raw count. This likely just reflects the fact that NY is doing a lot more testing than any other state. Alabama has had roughly 80% of their tests come back positive, and they've only done a little more than a hundred. https://www.politico.com/interactives/2020/coronavirus-testing-by-state-chart-of-new-cases/ https://www.politico.com/interactives/2020/coronavirus-testi...

jrockway 7y ago

I think Cuomo understands that it's not actually possible to lock down NYC. There aren't enough cops, courtrooms, or jail cells to enforce anything. That is why he's focusing on fining businesses for staying open, and is not sending cops up to make sure everyone stays 6 feet apart. One thing is possible, the other is just an authoritarian pipe dream. "Shelter in place" is a meaningless term when you can leave the shelter to go for a walk, go out and buy groceries, go to work as one of the many essential services, etc. Cuomo said as much. This isn't a natural disaster that destroyed infrastructure; all that needs to be done is keep the rate of hospitalizations under the number of available hospital beds.