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So no, not "double inflation" either. Alright, 163% of inflation, if you prefer to be pedantic. Wages and salaries went up 4.9% over the same period. As alwa

So no, not "double inflation" either. Alright, 163% of inflation, if you prefer to be pedantic. Wages and salaries went up 4.9% over the same period. As always, this only shows part of the story. This is the average for wages and salaries for private industry workers. If you look at median household income, it's stagnated. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/a-decade-with-no-income-gain/ http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/a-decade-with-n... Median household income in 1998 was $51,295 (adjusted). Median household income in 2009 was $50,303. So we are seeing a stagnation of income, adjusted for inflation. On top of that, food prices are increasing 163% faster than inflation. Now you can post links to isolated stats, and attempt to handwave away the issue, but it is an issue, and each year that food prices eclipse inflation builds towards increasing social and economic problems for those in lower income brackets.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
If food prices increased 6.7% (which, BTW, is a lot less than 100%, the number bugsy claimed), but CPI only increased 4.1%, that means other goods and services must have increased less than 4.1%. You have now changed the reference period, and you are also looking at a different quantity. Wages and salaries have actually increased 28% since 2001 (data doesn't go back to 1998). See my previous timeseries. Household income is a separate quantity - it can be raised or lowered by a variety of factors. For example, it can go down as household size decreases or as per-household hours worked go down. That's not the same thing as a wage decrease. Also, your time period seems a bit cherry picked - you are comparing the top of the last bubble to the bottom of the current bubble.
- michaelchisari 16y ago
  In terms of income, I'm talking about medians, you're talking about means. If you want a solid indicator of how prices and wages affect people, I would suggest looking at the median values, which are not skewed by wealth disparities. Also, you have to take certain factors in to account, such as the utility of the purchases in determining the effects of food prices eclipsing inflation. DVD players may have gone down in price, but that doesn't help much when you need to eat. Also taking into account stratification in food quality (as mentioned above), availability, etc. is also important.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    No, I'm talking about a wage index. It attempts to measure wages, while ignoring factors like hours worked, jobs worked, etc. I.e., if I quit my job as a trader and get a job as a bike messenger, wages haven't gone down in either profession.
fleitz 16y ago
Just so you know food prices as a percentage of income are actually down from the 1950s-1960s heyday of the middle class. Food prices in industrialized nations are a red herring. It's the difference between eating beef and eating pork. If it's really a big deal go to a fruit & veg store that sells Grade B instead of Grade A, you'll find the price difference for a few more spots on your Apple to be quite amazing. Food prices are an issue in developing nations, in North America it's just a political talking point designed to conjure up images of starving children used to justify 'farm aid' most of which ends up on Park Avenue. http://www.newwest.net/index.php/city/article/farming_park_avenue_farm_subsidies_from_manhattan_to_montana/C8/L8/ http://www.newwest.net/index.php/city/article/farming_park_a... Most malnutrition in North America is caused by diet choices and not the inability to afford food. Food prices are increasing because there was a huge bubble of cash which we are trying to reinflate, food is the new housing. Look at commodities which do not trade on a futures exchange, they haven't risen in price. It's pure speculation that people will pay more for food than they currently are. If it's really an issue then perhaps the US could stop putting 25% of it's corn production into the gas tank. Also, the CPI is rigged to present the picture that massive inflation isn't an issue in the US. If you believe the CPI is an accurate reflection of inflation in America I've got a bridge to sell you.
- michaelchisari 16y ago
  I greatly disagree it's a mere talking point. True, it's very difficult to starve in the U.S., but that shouldn't even be a baseline consideration for anyone, let alone a first world country, let alone the wealthiest country in the world. Many health issues in the U.S. are caused by the inability to afford healthy food. Not the organic, grass fed stuff at Whole Foods, just even moderately healthy food. Subsidies for ethanol aren't helping, but the problem is much greater than that. Here's a great map outlining food deserts in the U.S., a major issue in nutritional health and related directly to poverty and health issues. http://maps.ers.usda.gov/FoodAtlas/foodenv5.aspx http://maps.ers.usda.gov/FoodAtlas/foodenv5.aspx
  - fleitz 16y ago
    How do you define healthy food? When I started my startup I went from 91K to ~20K, I've never eaten so healthy in my life. Why? Because frozen convenience foods are all out of my price range! I can't afford to go to McDonalds, etc. What do I buy? For meat? Whatever is on sale, I've learned to do miraculous things with cheap food, I downloaded a bunch of kitchen nightmares and watched how Ramsay showed them how to make great meals for cheap. For veg? Concentrate on lettuce, carrots, frozen corn, peas, etc. Also, do local farmers markets. I can't say enough for buying in season. Lots of apples as well. I stay away from anything tropical as it doesn't seem to last that long. Staples / Starches? Potatoes, rice, some pasta I'm particular about how I spend my money and focus on finding the absolute largest sizes available. I'm buying whole pork shoulders for about half the cost on hamburger. Take it home, cut some of it up into a roast, some into steaks, all the stuff that doesn't look so great goes into the grinder. Ground pork goes nicely into chilli Then I bought 20KG of flour and some yeast and have been making my own bread. A loaf of bread costs me something like 20 cents. Yes, there are labour costs but I'll take Sundays off and make a tonne of food for the rest of the week. Bread is especially good once you figure out how to par bake it and freeze it. In my fridge I've got shepards pie, beef barley soup, and chili, white bread, oat bread, whole grain, etc. Some of that mine, some of it cooked by my girlfriend. If you were to just make bread you'd kill your whole Sunday but I've got 3 or 4 things on the go at once. Chilli, soups, etc. It's also a great distraction and gives me time to be social. The key is to buy in volume, make a lot of something all at once and put it in the fridge / freezer. Or buy foods that naturally keep for long periods of time. When I buy rice it's 25 KG, same with potatoes, I just put them in the cold part of my house. I'd really like to eventually do a book called The Startup Diet.

yummyfajitas 16y ago

If food prices increased 6.7% (which, BTW, is a lot less than 100%, the number bugsy claimed), but CPI only increased 4.1%, that means other goods and services must have increased less than 4.1%. You have now changed the reference period, and you are also looking at a different quantity. Wages and salaries have actually increased 28% since 2001 (data doesn't go back to 1998). See my previous timeseries. Household income is a separate quantity - it can be raised or lowered by a variety of factors. For example, it can go down as household size decreases or as per-household hours worked go down. That's not the same thing as a wage decrease. Also, your time period seems a bit cherry picked - you are comparing the top of the last bubble to the bottom of the current bubble.

michaelchisari 16y ago
In terms of income, I'm talking about medians, you're talking about means. If you want a solid indicator of how prices and wages affect people, I would suggest looking at the median values, which are not skewed by wealth disparities. Also, you have to take certain factors in to account, such as the utility of the purchases in determining the effects of food prices eclipsing inflation. DVD players may have gone down in price, but that doesn't help much when you need to eat. Also taking into account stratification in food quality (as mentioned above), availability, etc. is also important.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  No, I'm talking about a wage index. It attempts to measure wages, while ignoring factors like hours worked, jobs worked, etc. I.e., if I quit my job as a trader and get a job as a bike messenger, wages haven't gone down in either profession.

fleitz 16y ago

Just so you know food prices as a percentage of income are actually down from the 1950s-1960s heyday of the middle class. Food prices in industrialized nations are a red herring. It's the difference between eating beef and eating pork. If it's really a big deal go to a fruit & veg store that sells Grade B instead of Grade A, you'll find the price difference for a few more spots on your Apple to be quite amazing. Food prices are an issue in developing nations, in North America it's just a political talking point designed to conjure up images of starving children used to justify 'farm aid' most of which ends up on Park Avenue. http://www.newwest.net/index.php/city/article/farming_park_avenue_farm_subsidies_from_manhattan_to_montana/C8/L8/ http://www.newwest.net/index.php/city/article/farming_park_a... Most malnutrition in North America is caused by diet choices and not the inability to afford food. Food prices are increasing because there was a huge bubble of cash which we are trying to reinflate, food is the new housing. Look at commodities which do not trade on a futures exchange, they haven't risen in price. It's pure speculation that people will pay more for food than they currently are. If it's really an issue then perhaps the US could stop putting 25% of it's corn production into the gas tank. Also, the CPI is rigged to present the picture that massive inflation isn't an issue in the US. If you believe the CPI is an accurate reflection of inflation in America I've got a bridge to sell you.

michaelchisari 16y ago
I greatly disagree it's a mere talking point. True, it's very difficult to starve in the U.S., but that shouldn't even be a baseline consideration for anyone, let alone a first world country, let alone the wealthiest country in the world. Many health issues in the U.S. are caused by the inability to afford healthy food. Not the organic, grass fed stuff at Whole Foods, just even moderately healthy food. Subsidies for ethanol aren't helping, but the problem is much greater than that. Here's a great map outlining food deserts in the U.S., a major issue in nutritional health and related directly to poverty and health issues. http://maps.ers.usda.gov/FoodAtlas/foodenv5.aspx http://maps.ers.usda.gov/FoodAtlas/foodenv5.aspx
- fleitz 16y ago
  How do you define healthy food? When I started my startup I went from 91K to ~20K, I've never eaten so healthy in my life. Why? Because frozen convenience foods are all out of my price range! I can't afford to go to McDonalds, etc. What do I buy? For meat? Whatever is on sale, I've learned to do miraculous things with cheap food, I downloaded a bunch of kitchen nightmares and watched how Ramsay showed them how to make great meals for cheap. For veg? Concentrate on lettuce, carrots, frozen corn, peas, etc. Also, do local farmers markets. I can't say enough for buying in season. Lots of apples as well. I stay away from anything tropical as it doesn't seem to last that long. Staples / Starches? Potatoes, rice, some pasta I'm particular about how I spend my money and focus on finding the absolute largest sizes available. I'm buying whole pork shoulders for about half the cost on hamburger. Take it home, cut some of it up into a roast, some into steaks, all the stuff that doesn't look so great goes into the grinder. Ground pork goes nicely into chilli Then I bought 20KG of flour and some yeast and have been making my own bread. A loaf of bread costs me something like 20 cents. Yes, there are labour costs but I'll take Sundays off and make a tonne of food for the rest of the week. Bread is especially good once you figure out how to par bake it and freeze it. In my fridge I've got shepards pie, beef barley soup, and chili, white bread, oat bread, whole grain, etc. Some of that mine, some of it cooked by my girlfriend. If you were to just make bread you'd kill your whole Sunday but I've got 3 or 4 things on the go at once. Chilli, soups, etc. It's also a great distraction and gives me time to be social. The key is to buy in volume, make a lot of something all at once and put it in the fridge / freezer. Or buy foods that naturally keep for long periods of time. When I buy rice it's 25 KG, same with potatoes, I just put them in the cold part of my house. I'd really like to eventually do a book called The Startup Diet.