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>People don't expect aspiring accountants to spend their weekends managing their personal finances or imaginary companies in QuickBooks I do understand (and sy

by jasode 7y ago

>People don't expect aspiring accountants to spend their weekends managing their personal finances or imaginary companies in QuickBooks I do understand (and sympathize) why many job candidates disagree with the importance of a "personal portfolio" and so we get repeated frustrations of comparing it to accountants, lawyers, pharmacists, etc. E.g. if pharmacists don't dispense drugs on the weekend "for personal fun", why do we "expect" programmers to do the same? The way to make better sense of it is to not frame it in terms of "expectation" of a job seeker but of "identification and preference" of employers choosing one job seeker over another. Whether the preference itself is flawed is irrelevant. The point is that it's human nature to use a preference as a tie breaker. Programming, much more so than accounting/law, is an activity that many more people like to do for personal "fun". Because of this, it's inevitable that some employers tend to want to identify them and prioritize them over others. And hiring preferences are not unique to computer programmers. Here's engineer Ben Krasnow (of popular channel Applied Science) explaining how a "personal portfolio" helps him stand out and get good jobs: - deep link and watch for ~30 seconds: https://youtu.be/ihbYtxaEDSk?t=248 https://youtu.be/ihbYtxaEDSk?t=248 So, if you're an electrical engineer getting angry at the world because employers shouldn't "expect" you to design circuits for fun on the weekend, don't be surprised if they hire Ben instead of you. Edit to add another Ben K video covering the same topic but mentioning Valve & GoogleX and choosing between prospective candidates: - deep link: https://youtu.be/4RuT2TlhbU8?t=112 https://youtu.be/4RuT2TlhbU8?t=112

asdfman123 7y ago
You need to separate two aspects of this argument. 1) Recent grads should not feel entitled to pay, respect, etc. etc. just because they have a degree. 2) Someone does not need to have a wide portfolio of projects to be a good developer, but those will probably make them a better developer. The best junior developers will be the kinds of people who build constantly, but you don't need to be that to be a good, competent programmer.
wolfgke 7y ago
> Programming, much more so than accounting/law, is an activity that many more people like to do for personal "fun". Because of this, it's inevitable that some employers tend to want to identify them and prioritize them over others. The fact that I do programming at the weekend for fun on my personal projects does not in the slightest imply that I have fun at the kind of project that I have to do for the employer. So, judging by this criterion is a really bad idea of the (potential) employer.
- devurand 7y ago
  > The fact that I do programming at the weekend for fun on my personal projects does not in the slightest imply that I have fun at the kind of project that I have to do for the employer. So, judging by this criterion is a really bad idea of the (potential) employer. I am not sure that was the argument being made. I think it was more like "If a candidate actively uses and develops their skill set in their own time, then they will be preferred over candidates that don't". Those candidates demonstrate a higher level of mastery of the skills needed by virtue of doing something, _anything_ over other candidates who don't, even if the demonstration is trivial. It can also signal a lower managerial load if the candidate has demonstrated the skill set to self-start and self-motivate. That can also mean less ramp-up time to being productive.
  - watwut 7y ago
    I mean I had side project I don't maintain anymore. I did learned some on it, but I don't think I became so much better then what I am learning normally on the job and from reading. I am coding majority of my working time. Some more hours at home does zero for my learning. Also, people who put really a lot into work during work day, don't have projects outside. Because they are literally tired from work. If they would not, they would work more intensively on work. Like, if one have slow boring month, then it is easy to crank some more. But in normal week when you do with full focus, you get tired.
  - rustyboy 7y ago
    > develops their skill set in their own time I don't see working on personal projects as doing personal development. What I do then is riddled with bugs, no unit-tests or documentation, and with no sense of project or time management. Don't get me wrong if a personal project to you is production code, well then to me that is a hobby or maybe you are doing it to pad your resume, in which case sure it does seem like a good signal. Overall though you have to have unproductive fun and that's what personal projects are for me, and this notion that anything tied to code equals resume is really insidious. Like when do we ever get away from work? Hustle culture seems to have made it's way into a white collar job, I need to tune out.
watwut 7y ago
The real life state of things is that most of students don't have personal portfolios. They get hired by companies that do not require them and work with them as with juniors. They are also likely getting salary according to what their advisers or statistics tell. Also, real life state of things is that for non-juniors, most companies dont actually care about side projects. And overwhelming majority of developers dont have them. It is meme on hacker news that it matters, but I think that is some bias here.

by jasode 7y ago

asdfman123 7y ago

You need to separate two aspects of this argument. 1) Recent grads should not feel entitled to pay, respect, etc. etc. just because they have a degree. 2) Someone does not need to have a wide portfolio of projects to be a good developer, but those will probably make them a better developer. The best junior developers will be the kinds of people who build constantly, but you don't need to be that to be a good, competent programmer.

wolfgke 7y ago

> Programming, much more so than accounting/law, is an activity that many more people like to do for personal "fun". Because of this, it's inevitable that some employers tend to want to identify them and prioritize them over others. The fact that I do programming at the weekend for fun on my personal projects does not in the slightest imply that I have fun at the kind of project that I have to do for the employer. So, judging by this criterion is a really bad idea of the (potential) employer.

devurand 7y ago
> The fact that I do programming at the weekend for fun on my personal projects does not in the slightest imply that I have fun at the kind of project that I have to do for the employer. So, judging by this criterion is a really bad idea of the (potential) employer. I am not sure that was the argument being made. I think it was more like "If a candidate actively uses and develops their skill set in their own time, then they will be preferred over candidates that don't". Those candidates demonstrate a higher level of mastery of the skills needed by virtue of doing something, _anything_ over other candidates who don't, even if the demonstration is trivial. It can also signal a lower managerial load if the candidate has demonstrated the skill set to self-start and self-motivate. That can also mean less ramp-up time to being productive.
- watwut 7y ago
  I mean I had side project I don't maintain anymore. I did learned some on it, but I don't think I became so much better then what I am learning normally on the job and from reading. I am coding majority of my working time. Some more hours at home does zero for my learning. Also, people who put really a lot into work during work day, don't have projects outside. Because they are literally tired from work. If they would not, they would work more intensively on work. Like, if one have slow boring month, then it is easy to crank some more. But in normal week when you do with full focus, you get tired.
- rustyboy 7y ago
  > develops their skill set in their own time I don't see working on personal projects as doing personal development. What I do then is riddled with bugs, no unit-tests or documentation, and with no sense of project or time management. Don't get me wrong if a personal project to you is production code, well then to me that is a hobby or maybe you are doing it to pad your resume, in which case sure it does seem like a good signal. Overall though you have to have unproductive fun and that's what personal projects are for me, and this notion that anything tied to code equals resume is really insidious. Like when do we ever get away from work? Hustle culture seems to have made it's way into a white collar job, I need to tune out.

watwut 7y ago

The real life state of things is that most of students don't have personal portfolios. They get hired by companies that do not require them and work with them as with juniors. They are also likely getting salary according to what their advisers or statistics tell. Also, real life state of things is that for non-juniors, most companies dont actually care about side projects. And overwhelming majority of developers dont have them. It is meme on hacker news that it matters, but I think that is some bias here.