7 ms·

Copper destroys viruses and bacteria; why isn't it everywhere?

46 points by pjkundert 7y ago

pjkundert 7y ago
Copper and Silver appear to have a protective effect vs. bacterial, viral and fungal infections, while not destroying healthy tissue. Perhaps we've committed a mistake similar to that of the British Admiralty, who replaced scurvy-preventing lemon juice with ineffective lime juice in 1860 (https://idlewords.com/2010/03/scott_and_scurvy.htm https://idlewords.com/2010/03/scott_and_scurvy.htm). By replacing copper and silver in common use (door-knobs, hand rails, cutlery), we've inadvertently exposed our populations to increased viral and bacterial infection.
- guitarbill 7y ago
  but at the same time, there's more anti-bacterial soap, better cleaning products and methods, improvements in material science for non-porous, easy to clean surfaces. so overall, it's possible we experience much less exposure, despite the lack of these metals in our immediate environment. in any case, it isn't obvious that a (small?) increase in exposure would necessarily be bad for the immune system and people. there's evidence that reduced microbial exposures in children leads to an increase in allergies (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1838109/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1838109/)
  - wolco 7y ago
    Please share any better consumer cleaning products you found. What worked 70 years ago is still what works today from my experience.
    - guitarbill 7y ago
      widely available and cheap microfibre cloths are an example i think?
  - lm28469 7y ago
    > there's more anti-bacterial soap, better cleaning products and methods, Metal door knobs and rails are passive, you don't need to think about them for them to be effective [0]. And you can't hoard metal door knobs as easily as hand sanitiser and masks. [0] if they are, I don't have an opinion on that.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      They are also preventative in a way that hand washing is not. I don't know how to effectively express the difference. I've been trying to think about how because I wish we put more emphasis on "stop touching your face" than on hand washing. Hand washing kind of assumes you will continue to be a grubby person, mindlessly touching your face and everyone you know and all kinds of stuff all the time. And it's going to be okay because you washed it off, hopefully before it made you ill and hopefully before you passed it on. But in reality, it's far better to skew your focus towards stop touching stuff, etc, than to focus on washing hands so much. Don't get me wrong. I wash hands a metric fuckton. But I'm also amazingly careful about not touching stuff. It's kind of the difference between saying "Free love is totes fine! Just wear a condom!" And "It's best to only sleep with people you know well in a committed monogamous relationship. Wear a condom for any exceptions whatsoever and we actively recommend against orgies. Sorry to be a bummer, but orgies are never a hygiene best practice." I'm sorry if I'm making no sense. I'm actively working on trying to figure out how to say this well cuz Reasons. That makes this "practice." Sorry. (But not very.)
  - travisporter 7y ago
    Slightly off topic, but antibacterial soap is discouraged by the FDA. https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/antibacterial-soap-you-can-skip-it-use-plain-soap-and-water https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/antibacterial...
    - masonic 7y ago
      This document predates the ban on triclosan and triclocarban.
samizdis 7y ago
I had no idea about that. Wikipedia entry, "Antimicrobial properties of copper" was also an eye-opener: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_co...
- chewz 7y ago
  This is why people used silver and copper for pots, plates and cutlery for ages. Overusing silver leads to blue pigmentation - hence 'blue blood' - as mostly upper classes used silver plates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria
  - acheron 7y ago
    “Blue blood” has nothing to do with argyria: https://www.etymonline.com/word/blue-blood https://www.etymonline.com/word/blue-blood
gshdg 7y ago
Because it’s expensive and in short supply? There’s a reason why salvagers and squatters will often rip out any copper wiring and piping they can find in an abandoned structure.
- thedanbob 7y ago
  This was addressed in the article: > It doesn't seem like we'll run out of copper in the near future, according to the World Copper Factbook from 2019. Copper is one of the most recycled of all metals—nearly all copper can be recycled and not lose any of its properties. and > Even when factoring in how much the copper cost initially, you'd make that money back in savings within two months, Schmidt said. And considering that the copper never loses its microbial killing abilities—hospitals would quickly be saving money (and lives).
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    It's recycled because it's scarce, though. If we suddenly used it on everything, it'd be even more scarce.
    - kwhitefoot 7y ago
      True, but copper is the 26th commonest element in the Earth's crust at between 50 and 100 parts per million with an annual production of nearly 20 million tonne. So it seems unlikely that will will run short of it soon, and if we do then we can simply reuse what we have used on door handles, etc. It's recycled so much partly because it is easy and cheap to do and because copper that is contaminated making it unusable for electrical wire is still useful for other purposes such as plumbing.
JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Not an easy sell. Touch shiny copper once - it tarnishes. Fingerprints, handprints, smeary looking instantly. Hard to convince folks its clean, or better than clean, when it looks grody.
pontifier 7y ago
Welcome to the future... I hope you like steampunk!
- travisporter 7y ago
  Man... you just made me dust off my copy of Dishonored 2!
_Microft 7y ago
As a side note, aquatic life has problems with too high copper concentrations. https://www.epa.gov/wqc/aquatic-life-criteria-copper https://www.epa.gov/wqc/aquatic-life-criteria-copper
doodlebugging 7y ago
I noticed something interesting on the Reuters map of Covid-19 cases [0]. The map uses calibrated dots for each county that has reported a positive Covid-19 case. Some reports have not made it to the map and the NYC numbers haven't been updated since yesterday morning but the map is still informative. I noticed a strong correlation between counties with reported infections and the route of interstate highways. Take Texas, where I live - From Laredo all the way to DFW there are counties reporting outbreaks. Indeed, one can trace I-35 all the way across Oklahoma, Kansas, and on to Minnesota by the fairly regularly spaced county reports. You can also trace the route of I-10 from San Antonio to Houston and all the way along the Gulf Coast to Florida. I-10 to the west of San Antonio crosses a lot of rural area and then the Permian Basin where all the oil and gas production activity is occurring. There are no reported outbreaks there yet. The Lubbock County cases north of the route of I-20 appeared yesterday. I think the blank spot in the Permian Basin area exists because anyone who has a job out there today will go to work if they still have a job whether they are sick or not. Many of the people working there are young and healthy too. I do expect to see cases pop up there over the next few days since spring breakers from the schools and colleges will be passing through or returning home from affected areas. No matter where you look on the map, you can correlate counties affected with well-traveled highways and interstates. I have been watching this map for days and it has been interesting. It is almost as if those people who became worried about Covid-19 elected to drive instead of fly and some of them were already infected or possibly that some people infected on a flight left the airports and headed home. As they traveled they were dispensing gasoline, grabbing burgers or burritos or chicken sandwiches, making a pit stop or just stretching their legs. How does that tie into this article? Since an infected person who doesn't know that they are infected will grab door handles, push buttons on ATMs and gas pump card readers, pump gas, open and close cooler doors to get refreshments, or handle cup lids after they dispense their drinks it is unlikely that all the transmission points could have been effectively sanitized especially since a lot of this travel probably occurred before officials were prepared to warn people about Covid-19. If copper plating had been used for door handles, countertops, etc then some of this easy transmission could've prevented before it had a chance to start. Hospitals certainly have a well-documented history of being a great place to get more than you bargained for but the main threat to the average person appears to involve simply going on about your business and inadvertently coming into contact with something that an infected person touched. Right now, we get to see what unchecked spread looks like when you have unrestricted travel. I picture interstate truckers, spring breakers, business travelers who elected to rent a car and drive instead of flying as being significant vectors. The spacing of the counties in many cases is the spacing that one would see if a single infected traveler stopped every hour and a half for fuel or bathroom break. Just something I noticed. What do y'all think? [0] https://www.reuters.com/ https://www.reuters.com/
kwhitefoot 7y ago
As it seems to be widely agreed that copper or copper alloy surfaces are a good idea does anyone have any suggestions for methods of applying copper to existing surfaces such as keyboards, mice, mobile phone cases, gloves, door handles, etc. Could powdered copper suspended in some kind of water based lacquer work for instance?

46 points by pjkundert 7y ago

Copper and Silver appear to have a protective effect vs. bacterial, viral and fungal infections, while not destroying healthy tissue. Perhaps we've committed a mistake similar to that of the British Admiralty, who replaced scurvy-preventing lemon juice with ineffective lime juice in 1860 (https://idlewords.com/2010/03/scott_and_scurvy.htm https://idlewords.com/2010/03/scott_and_scurvy.htm). By replacing copper and silver in common use (door-knobs, hand rails, cutlery), we've inadvertently exposed our populations to increased viral and bacterial infection.

guitarbill 7y ago
but at the same time, there's more anti-bacterial soap, better cleaning products and methods, improvements in material science for non-porous, easy to clean surfaces. so overall, it's possible we experience much less exposure, despite the lack of these metals in our immediate environment. in any case, it isn't obvious that a (small?) increase in exposure would necessarily be bad for the immune system and people. there's evidence that reduced microbial exposures in children leads to an increase in allergies (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1838109/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1838109/)
- wolco 7y ago
  Please share any better consumer cleaning products you found. What worked 70 years ago is still what works today from my experience.
  - guitarbill 7y ago
    widely available and cheap microfibre cloths are an example i think?
- lm28469 7y ago
  > there's more anti-bacterial soap, better cleaning products and methods, Metal door knobs and rails are passive, you don't need to think about them for them to be effective [0]. And you can't hoard metal door knobs as easily as hand sanitiser and masks. [0] if they are, I don't have an opinion on that.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    They are also preventative in a way that hand washing is not. I don't know how to effectively express the difference. I've been trying to think about how because I wish we put more emphasis on "stop touching your face" than on hand washing. Hand washing kind of assumes you will continue to be a grubby person, mindlessly touching your face and everyone you know and all kinds of stuff all the time. And it's going to be okay because you washed it off, hopefully before it made you ill and hopefully before you passed it on. But in reality, it's far better to skew your focus towards stop touching stuff, etc, than to focus on washing hands so much. Don't get me wrong. I wash hands a metric fuckton. But I'm also amazingly careful about not touching stuff. It's kind of the difference between saying "Free love is totes fine! Just wear a condom!" And "It's best to only sleep with people you know well in a committed monogamous relationship. Wear a condom for any exceptions whatsoever and we actively recommend against orgies. Sorry to be a bummer, but orgies are never a hygiene best practice." I'm sorry if I'm making no sense. I'm actively working on trying to figure out how to say this well cuz Reasons. That makes this "practice." Sorry. (But not very.)
- travisporter 7y ago
  Slightly off topic, but antibacterial soap is discouraged by the FDA. https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/antibacterial-soap-you-can-skip-it-use-plain-soap-and-water https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/antibacterial...
  - masonic 7y ago
    This document predates the ban on triclosan and triclocarban.

samizdis 7y ago

I had no idea about that. Wikipedia entry, "Antimicrobial properties of copper" was also an eye-opener: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_co...

chewz 7y ago
This is why people used silver and copper for pots, plates and cutlery for ages. Overusing silver leads to blue pigmentation - hence 'blue blood' - as mostly upper classes used silver plates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria
- acheron 7y ago
  “Blue blood” has nothing to do with argyria: https://www.etymonline.com/word/blue-blood https://www.etymonline.com/word/blue-blood

gshdg 7y ago

Because it’s expensive and in short supply? There’s a reason why salvagers and squatters will often rip out any copper wiring and piping they can find in an abandoned structure.

thedanbob 7y ago
This was addressed in the article: > It doesn't seem like we'll run out of copper in the near future, according to the World Copper Factbook from 2019. Copper is one of the most recycled of all metals—nearly all copper can be recycled and not lose any of its properties. and > Even when factoring in how much the copper cost initially, you'd make that money back in savings within two months, Schmidt said. And considering that the copper never loses its microbial killing abilities—hospitals would quickly be saving money (and lives).
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  It's recycled because it's scarce, though. If we suddenly used it on everything, it'd be even more scarce.
  - kwhitefoot 7y ago
    True, but copper is the 26th commonest element in the Earth's crust at between 50 and 100 parts per million with an annual production of nearly 20 million tonne. So it seems unlikely that will will run short of it soon, and if we do then we can simply reuse what we have used on door handles, etc. It's recycled so much partly because it is easy and cheap to do and because copper that is contaminated making it unusable for electrical wire is still useful for other purposes such as plumbing.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

Not an easy sell. Touch shiny copper once - it tarnishes. Fingerprints, handprints, smeary looking instantly. Hard to convince folks its clean, or better than clean, when it looks grody.

pontifier 7y ago

Welcome to the future... I hope you like steampunk!

travisporter 7y ago
Man... you just made me dust off my copy of Dishonored 2!

_Microft 7y ago

As a side note, aquatic life has problems with too high copper concentrations. https://www.epa.gov/wqc/aquatic-life-criteria-copper https://www.epa.gov/wqc/aquatic-life-criteria-copper

doodlebugging 7y ago

I noticed something interesting on the Reuters map of Covid-19 cases [0]. The map uses calibrated dots for each county that has reported a positive Covid-19 case. Some reports have not made it to the map and the NYC numbers haven't been updated since yesterday morning but the map is still informative. I noticed a strong correlation between counties with reported infections and the route of interstate highways. Take Texas, where I live - From Laredo all the way to DFW there are counties reporting outbreaks. Indeed, one can trace I-35 all the way across Oklahoma, Kansas, and on to Minnesota by the fairly regularly spaced county reports. You can also trace the route of I-10 from San Antonio to Houston and all the way along the Gulf Coast to Florida. I-10 to the west of San Antonio crosses a lot of rural area and then the Permian Basin where all the oil and gas production activity is occurring. There are no reported outbreaks there yet. The Lubbock County cases north of the route of I-20 appeared yesterday. I think the blank spot in the Permian Basin area exists because anyone who has a job out there today will go to work if they still have a job whether they are sick or not. Many of the people working there are young and healthy too. I do expect to see cases pop up there over the next few days since spring breakers from the schools and colleges will be passing through or returning home from affected areas. No matter where you look on the map, you can correlate counties affected with well-traveled highways and interstates. I have been watching this map for days and it has been interesting. It is almost as if those people who became worried about Covid-19 elected to drive instead of fly and some of them were already infected or possibly that some people infected on a flight left the airports and headed home. As they traveled they were dispensing gasoline, grabbing burgers or burritos or chicken sandwiches, making a pit stop or just stretching their legs. How does that tie into this article? Since an infected person who doesn't know that they are infected will grab door handles, push buttons on ATMs and gas pump card readers, pump gas, open and close cooler doors to get refreshments, or handle cup lids after they dispense their drinks it is unlikely that all the transmission points could have been effectively sanitized especially since a lot of this travel probably occurred before officials were prepared to warn people about Covid-19. If copper plating had been used for door handles, countertops, etc then some of this easy transmission could've prevented before it had a chance to start. Hospitals certainly have a well-documented history of being a great place to get more than you bargained for but the main threat to the average person appears to involve simply going on about your business and inadvertently coming into contact with something that an infected person touched. Right now, we get to see what unchecked spread looks like when you have unrestricted travel. I picture interstate truckers, spring breakers, business travelers who elected to rent a car and drive instead of flying as being significant vectors. The spacing of the counties in many cases is the spacing that one would see if a single infected traveler stopped every hour and a half for fuel or bathroom break. Just something I noticed. What do y'all think? [0] https://www.reuters.com/ https://www.reuters.com/

kwhitefoot 7y ago

As it seems to be widely agreed that copper or copper alloy surfaces are a good idea does anyone have any suggestions for methods of applying copper to existing surfaces such as keyboards, mice, mobile phone cases, gloves, door handles, etc. Could powdered copper suspended in some kind of water based lacquer work for instance?